Eating Some Crow

Eating Some Crow

This is a discussion on Eating Some Crow within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I haven't put up a lot of posts on here, but I have bad-mouthed Kahr a couple of times several weeks back. Several months ago ...

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  1. #1
    New Member Array hardscrabble's Avatar
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    Eating Some Crow

    I haven't put up a lot of posts on here, but I have bad-mouthed Kahr a couple of times several weeks back. Several months ago I bought a new CM9 and I had to return it to the factory because I had several misfires due to light primer strikes. Since it came back I have put 5 or 6 boxes of various 9MM through it without a problem. I'm not going to say I ever became totally comfortable with it, but that was more my issue and not an issue with the gun. Kahr factory service fixed the problem (they replaced the slide) and I could have/should have avoided making a bigger issue out of it than it was, with my sample size of "one".

    I bought the thing because I wanted to hide a pistol in my front pocket. As it turned out, that wasn't going to work for me. The pistol went in my pocket fine, in a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster, and it would deploy in a hurry with absolutely no hang ups whatsoever. My problem was that I use my pockets for other stuff...like keys, and a cell phone, and a folding knife, and spare change, and a money clip and sometimes other stuff. I just couldn't comfortably give up a front pocket. The CM9 ended up in the safe, and I went back to an HkP2000 or a P2000sk in Comp-Tac Minotaur holsters. This was a perfectly good solution for most of the year. The Comp-Tacs hide those pistols well (even my P30). However, those pistols are heavy, and the holsters won't hide them 100% if I'm wearing a t-shirt. They hide OK, but they don't disappear.

    Lucky for me, an old friend of mine had the opposite problem. He's an attorney and a holster just doesn't seem to work for him. He doesn't want to show a weapon in front of clients and he doesn't want the on/off hassle when he goes in and out of the courthouse. He was also in possession of a Kahr P9 (night sights) that he had never fired, and that wouldn't fit in his pocket.

    I told him about my CM9 problems, that we should check to make sure his P9 was reliable, and we took it out and worked our way through 300 rounds or so without any problem whatsoever. Since he was in the midst of some health issues, I did most of the shooting. As reluctant as I am (was) regarding Kahr reliability, I really was impressed with the P9. It's very flat, very light and it shoots like it's a lot bigger than it actually is. I don't complain if I can't get a full grip on a pistol (extensive Glock 27 experience and I love the Hk P2Ksk) but I'd rather get a full grip, and I get that grip on the P9. I let him know how much I liked it, and we ended up trading Kahrs.

    Bottom line: my sample size is now "two". One had issues but Kahr fixed it with no cost to me except the drive to the FedEx place and 10 days without the pistol. The other has been rock solid so far, and is the most hassle-free carry pistol I have tried. Here's a pic (with Comp-Tac Minotaur holster and a Zero Tolerance 0560 folder).



  2. #2
    Member Array BadHabit's Avatar
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    Glad everything turned out well with the Kahr.

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Way to man up and eat the crow. Hope they continue to work out for you.
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Crow ain't so bad, I've had to eat a few crap sandwiches in my day
    pittypat21 likes this.
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardscrabble View Post
    Eating Some Crow

    ... but I have bad-mouthed Kahr a couple of times several weeks back.
    Depends whether you were knocking the company, or knocking the instance of product that you witnessed failing its purpose and you.

    Myself, I've had six Kahr pistols, none of which ended up being able to cycle flawlessly, despite a long battery of testing with various ammo, cleaning/lube patterns, firmness of hand/wrist, etc. Since Kahr was fully supportive in attempting to correct the issues as I found them, I have no problems with the company as such. But in whatever comments I've made, I have tried to focus on the specific pistols and their issues. That's completely fair game based on experience, I'd say, even if dealing with a sample of one (as in your case). "Crow"? Meh. A failing product deserves to be treated as a failing product.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  6. #6
    New Member Array hardscrabble's Avatar
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    "Depends whether you were knocking the company, or knocking the instance of product that you witnessed failing its purpose and you."

    Yeah, I agree with you: one new pistol that fails out of the box is one too many, if it happens to be yours. I made a sweeping statement like "they are reliable if you get a good one, but there's a good chance you might get a bad one". I owned (and own) exactly one Kahr. The one Kahr I used to own failed until serviced, then it was reliable over the course of 300 rounds or so. The one I currently own has been 100% reliable in my experience, also over the course of about 300 rounds. I don't have enough experience with Kahr pistols to make the kind of statement I remember making. I feel bad about that, since the majority of negative internet posts regarding firearms are pretty useless for the same reason: guy bought one copy of a pistol and it wouldn't shoot to his satisfaction (etc.) so he says something like "Co. X's pistols all suck because they won't shoot". Unfortunately, since most of us don't own a meaningful sample size, we have to rely on these comments, in aggregate, to try to make buying decisions. I don't regret knocking my non-functioning pistol, but I do regret making comments that would lead one to believe that (all or most or some meaningful number of) Kahrs are unreliable...or that I had more experience with them than I do.

    It's cooler now and I'm not wearing a t-shirt and shorts every day (I'm retired) so I have time to shoot another few hundred rounds out of the P9 before I carry it regularly (most likely just during the summer). Like most, I'll either gain some trust in it over time, or I won't and it'll get sold. I really hope it works out, because it's a breeze to carry.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardscrabble View Post
    Unfortunately, since most of us don't own a meaningful sample size, we have to rely on these comments, in aggregate, to try to make buying decisions.
    Even with the six Kahrs that I've owned, none of the buyers had reported any subsequent ugly issues, post-sale, and all were apprised of my difficulties in getting them to run flawlessly. As well, there are many owners of them that have experience zero failures of any sort over thousands of rounds.

    Kahr makes some of the best alternatives in their size/weight class, so it can be hard not to consider them in any evaluation of a potential new carry gun. For whatever reason, though, they just don't seem to work with my hand, grip, stiffness, shooting style, stars I'm sitting under while shooting, or whatever. Bummer, 'cause I would dearly love to still have the CW9, PM9 and P380. Ah, well. Nothing lasts forever.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array sixgun's Avatar
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    Ive ate crow on a couple of gun makers in the past. And I learned not to badmouth them. until you try them. I ended up buying from them and being good pistols. Glad your situation worked out for you. Btw thats a good looking carry outfit. Stay safe.

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    Everyone has to eat crow once in a while. The trick is making sure you get all the feathers off and how you cook it.

    Every manufacturer has one slip through on occasion. It's going to happen, any time man and machine work together to make something. The problem comes in when the man (as in manufacturer) won't stand behind his product and make it right. Sounds like Kahr did you right on the first gun.
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    Distinguished Member Array hardluk1's Avatar
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    Crow taste goes away after a while. Live and learn. To many do get on a rant before really trying to fix the problem and that can be the firearm , the ammo and the person. Glad you ended up with a nice mixed pair to cc. I bought my first kahr used off a very seasoned shooter that could not make it shoot. 1200 rounds later it has been a great pistol for me. He finally figured out what he thinks he was doing wrong and now has a cm40.

    I had questions about some wear on one of my cm9 after 200 rounds , talked to QS and they wanted to see photos and then wanted the pistol to see right away. Shippng label sent . Pistol was reviewed by them, barrel changed along with new recoil spring and back in my hands in a week total time. Hate the new recoil springs but pistols still shoots great. Bounsed that new spring off the ceiling off when I broke it down to clean.
    Last edited by hardluk1; October 28th, 2012 at 06:49 PM.

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    It's good when a plan works out. Glad that you were able to do a bit of horse trading with both parties walking away happy.
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  12. #12
    Senior Member Array surefire7's Avatar
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    Glad everything worked out, NICE Zero Tolerance BTW.
    "Good decisions come from experience;
    experience comes from bad decisions"

  13. #13
    Member Array SFCDan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardscrabble View Post
    I haven't put up a lot of posts on here, but I have bad-mouthed Kahr a couple of times several weeks back. Several months ago I bought a new CM9 and I had to return it to the factory because I had several misfires due to light primer strikes. Since it came back I have put 5 or 6 boxes of various 9MM through it without a problem. I'm not going to say I ever became totally comfortable with it, but that was more my issue and not an issue with the gun. Kahr factory service fixed the problem (they replaced the slide) and I could have/should have avoided making a bigger issue out of it than it was, with my sample size of "one".

    I bought the thing because I wanted to hide a pistol in my front pocket. As it turned out, that wasn't going to work for me. The pistol went in my pocket fine, in a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster, and it would deploy in a hurry with absolutely no hang ups whatsoever. My problem was that I use my pockets for other stuff...like keys, and a cell phone, and a folding knife, and spare change, and a money clip and sometimes other stuff. I just couldn't comfortably give up a front pocket. The CM9 ended up in the safe, and I went back to an HkP2000 or a P2000sk in Comp-Tac Minotaur holsters. This was a perfectly good solution for most of the year. The Comp-Tacs hide those pistols well (even my P30). However, those pistols are heavy, and the holsters won't hide them 100% if I'm wearing a t-shirt. They hide OK, but they don't disappear.

    Lucky for me, an old friend of mine had the opposite problem. He's an attorney and a holster just doesn't seem to work for him. He doesn't want to show a weapon in front of clients and he doesn't want the on/off hassle when he goes in and out of the courthouse. He was also in possession of a Kahr P9 (night sights) that he had never fired, and that wouldn't fit in his pocket.

    I told him about my CM9 problems, that we should check to make sure his P9 was reliable, and we took it out and worked our way through 300 rounds or so without any problem whatsoever. Since he was in the midst of some health issues, I did most of the shooting. As reluctant as I am (was) regarding Kahr reliability, I really was impressed with the P9. It's very flat, very light and it shoots like it's a lot bigger than it actually is. I don't complain if I can't get a full grip on a pistol (extensive Glock 27 experience and I love the Hk P2Ksk) but I'd rather get a full grip, and I get that grip on the P9. I let him know how much I liked it, and we ended up trading Kahrs.

    Bottom line: my sample size is now "two". One had issues but Kahr fixed it with no cost to me except the drive to the FedEx place and 10 days without the pistol. The other has been rock solid so far, and is the most hassle-free carry pistol I have tried. Here's a pic (with Comp-Tac Minotaur holster and a Zero Tolerance 0560 folder).

    Glad to hear all worked out with the Kahr. Where is that holster form? Looks very nice!
    Former US Army SFC
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  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    Looks like a Comp-Tac Minotaur; excellent choice.

  15. #15
    New Member Array hardscrabble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    Looks like a Comp-Tac Minotaur; excellent choice.
    It is a Comp Tac Minotaur. I had a couple that carry Hk's very well so I bought one for this Kahr. Some say it's too much for such a flat, light pistol...that you can get away with a lot less. Might be something to that, but I'll never find out for sure because I really, really like these holsters. They are highly adjustable for cant, ride height and they do a good job supporting a much heavier pistol, like a fully loaded P30. It is possible to buy one leather base, then buy different kydex half-holsters to fit (in order to save a few bucks). I didn't go that route, because I like to break the holster in with all the screws tightened down, so the pistol imprints the leather slightly and achieves a slightly better fit. Then I back off the screws so that the pistol is somewhat loose in the holster, but retained appropriately once a belt is buckled on top.

    I was really pleased with the way the Comp-Tac pulls the Kahr butt right into my side, completely hiding the pistol when I wear a t-shirt. Everybody knows you have to be careful or the butt of a pistol carried three/four o'clock will print like crazy under a light t-shirt. Not happening with this combo. With an Hk P2000, which is what I carry most of the time, I'll only print if I bend at the waist.

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