German engineering alone is worth a premium. H&K, SIG, Korth, you name it. I'd drop the money in a heartbeat if I had it.
This is a discussion on So...are the H&K's really worth that much more? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; German engineering alone is worth a premium. H&K, SIG, Korth, you name it. I'd drop the money in a heartbeat if I had it....
German engineering alone is worth a premium. H&K, SIG, Korth, you name it. I'd drop the money in a heartbeat if I had it.
You get what you pay for....
I have two..HK45C (HD) & P2000sk .40 (CCW) both excellent pistols! Not one issue, malfunction, whatever! My only problem is not enough ammo!
HK's are worth every penny. Accuracy and especially total reliability are what we bet our lives on when we choose a firearm to protect us and our family.
Here's a great post from a friend who "knows" HK's very well. I'd like to share it with you.
Why HK pistols (and HK firearms in general) are more expensive than their competitors.
1. Most are designed, built and tested to NATO MIL specs (ACC-225), not commercial specs. NATO specs includes tests not conducted by many commercial makers such as drop tests, obstructed bore tests, extreme temps, ice, static sand, OTB, elevated/depressed, etc.
2. All (100%) of HK firearms are test fired and zeroed at the factory. In some companies only a % are tested.
3. HK materials (steel, barrel, etc.) are of the highest quality available and it shows in long-term or worst case scenarios. The superior barrel performance is a good example, though you may never see it in casual use.
4. HK pistols are not assembled by armorers’ students and then sold to customers. Some companies have been known to do so.
5. The average German worker is paid at a far higher rate than the equivalent US worker. Part of the reasons why includes the mandatory training they must receive and tests they must pass before receiving the position. The cost of living in Germany is also higher and HK contributes to a substantial “Pensioner Fund” for its retirees. Many also work at the same company for decades and not uncommon are 40 year employees!) and therefore rise high on the pay scale for their extensive hard-earned skill and experience.
6. HK barrels are made by a cold hammer forged process using a material that is unique to HK guns. Many barrels get special HK-unique steps added such as a tapered, poly, hybrid poly bore profile or induction hardening and all long-gun barrels are straightened. As an example, Stelite liners are not used in HK MG barrels – they are simply not needed and perform as well or better.
7. Compare the polymer molding and machining of say an HK P30 and a SIG P229. It is RARE to see machining marks on an HK.
8. HK rigorously tests their products to destruction in a "Firing Lab" manned with very senior test personnel before the design is frozen. This reduces the incidence of post-release issues. HK also takes and test its products at remote environmental test facilities to include desert (Yuma Proving Grounds, Saudi Arabia), arctic (Norway, Alaska), jungle (Brunei, Panama). That costs BIG bucks but pays off in hard core performance.
9. HK guns are imported for the most part (or the parts used to assemble them in NH) are imported. That results in mandatory FET, freight and exchange rate subsidies being added and passed on to the customer. HK as a German gun maker and importer they also have to comply with stringent export controls and that too costs money, which gets passed along in sale prices.
10. The cost of the production tooling (and materials) used by HK to produce, assemble and QA product is high as it includes QA tests and steps not conducted by many other makers. HK cut its teeth as a mass producer and still today builds the production tooling with that in mind – high volumes with a lot of automation. That tooling and gauging costs money as does the high hourly rates of the skilled workers and the additional time required to conduct it.
11. 10-20% of HK’s annual operating budget is spent on its extensive “Technique” departments to include Design, Prototype Fabrication and the Firing Lab. These are the highest paid, most skilled workers at HK and that costs money as well. They are best of breed and always have many more projects up in the air then you might think, or know of (Phased Plasma Rifle in the 80 watt Range).
12. HK places itself purposely in the “higher end” of the market. Like BMW and Mercedes HK knows it rates are higher and always will be compared to say Colt, S&W, Beretta, etc. So they go after superior performance and quality at a higher price point to fewer purchasers versus a cheaper, lower quality product to more buyers.
13. @ 15% of HK annual revenue is reinvested in new products, and infrastructure. While that may not seem like a lot it is and the state of the factory at in Oberndorf shows it. Look at the state of their competitors factories. There are few that compare to HK GmbH in the eyes of those who have been to many others. HK spends the revenue it makes off of both commercial and Government sales on new product so in a way the US commercial buyer who purchases an HK45 pistol helps fund the development of the MG4 LMG or XM25.
14. HK builds much of the weapon parts in house to maintain quality control. While cheaper subs are available one loses some control in doing so. HK’s goal has always been to minimize cost but maintain quality and to do so it keeps many items in house that in many others companies go to the higher bidder (magazines, small piece parts, etc.). HK also has some of the very best MIM and molding capabilities and can thus up the quality of their product by using their own, superior product.
15. Like HK, HK’s subs are of a higher quality for the same reasons and with the same end results. You buy the very best frame mold in Germany, it will cost you but the end product is superior.
16. Interchangeable parts – very few HK parts are not fully interchangeable without hand fitting. Even in a gun like the GMG, there are no parts that require hand fitting. This requires that each and every raw material and finished part, and each tool that fabricates the part, is dimensionally and exactly the same and maintained the same at all time by constant checks by skilled personnel with high dollar measuring devices and gauges. Again something you may never see but it insures when you replace a part it both fits and works w/o modifications.
17. HK has voluntarily developed, tested and included in their product unique features like USP firing mode modularity, MK23 barrel O-rings, special high performance finishes, unique G36/HK416 gas systems, drop-in LEM trigger systems, side-loading 40mm grenade launchers, GMG’s with extruded aluminum receivers and HK211’s with Ti receivers, unique cartridges for things like MP7 and P46, etc. HK also makes over 100 models of HK firearms currently and 1000’s of modular variants for users the world over speaking many languages, which costs money to build, inventory, document and record these countless production variations.
There are a few other reasons which I will not mention here.
Hope this helps.
"Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less".
General Robert E. Lee
Don't get me wrong though, I love my Silverhawk 12 gauge, and my Ruger Mk I. I would not, however, own a gun with magazine disconnect, so that rules the modern Ruger models out for me. That's one reason I went to the M&P Shield over the LC9, along with the lousy trigger on the LC9.
Anyway, take a look at a modern H&K P30. adjustable side and back grip panels on a polymer frame, hammer forged polygonal barrel, fully ambidextrous operation, factory luminescent night sights of U.S. model tritium sights, optional threaded barrel, and about 6 different trigger variations including LEM/DAO, and DA/SA. It's a fantastic handgun. It also has a 10.5 pound slide spring, so racking it is like a dream. It really is one of my favorite handguns.
Amen to the magazine disconnect. But, the Peeps Republic of Kalifornia demanded one, and Ruger goosestepped right along with them.
As for distrusting German engineering? Wow, that is honestly the first time I've heard anyone claim that. Not sure what your history with German cars are, but I've owned a handful of BMW's over the years and now have a VW SUV, and those things started up first time every time.
I expect the same from my HK and it has so far delivered.
Now, if I can just afford a MR762A1, life would be complete.
If I had to say which make vehicle I saw sitting on the side of I-95 most, first out of my mouth would be BMW. Last would be Toyota. Maybe the Japanese should make handguns?
Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
Hello!! Resident fan boy here:
That is all
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
If not me, then who?
Thanks fellas, these have been some really positive and informative posts. I stopped by my preferred gun shop on the way home to look at the H&K USP 9mm Compact. You guys are spot on about the quality and fit/finish of this weapon. However, It took exactly 3.5 seconds for me to realize this gun was too big for my intended purpose. It is as big as my midsize 45 M&P, a very wide gun for a 9mm...IMO. I did make a purchase and that purchase was the Springfield EMP in 9mm. The 1911 format is hard to beat and I really liked the looks and feel of this firearm. Got home too late to try it out but I'll give it a good cleaning tonight and run it through the paces tomorrow. Now my M1 has some Springfield company in the vault.
Porsches are worth it (have one). Mercedes Benz are worth it (had one). Krieghoff shotguns are worth it (sold it to buy a Perazzi). The folks who say HK pistols aren't worth the money are almost ALWAYS folks who've never...had the money. If they don't have the money, then how can they really decide what's worth what? I can't answer if a Hi-Point or a Bersa is really "worth the money" because I've NEVER OWNED ONE! How would (could) I know? Credible opinions are only the most knowledgable opinions. The rest are, at best, guesses from a distance.
There are only TWO kinds of people in this world; those who describe the world as filled with two kinds of people...and those who don't.
An EMP? Very nice, but it certainly seems you are not worried about dollar signs :)
"When among wild beasts, if they menace you, be a wild beast."
As a disclaimer and warning, this reply is a rant. I can't justify the price that H&K gets for a polymer gun. I'm sorry, but Sig is getting a comparable price for an all-metal gun. I've been carrying a Sig 226 as my duty weapon for over a decade and I can verify firsthand that these guns are indeed worth what Sig charges. The price of a used Sig is very fair too. Although I've never owned an H&K, I have shot one, and I don't think it would be anymore reliable than my Sig. I think that this is a Nike-type of deal where the price tag breaks down like 1/4 of the $ is for the gun and the other 3/4 is for the name. Even a used H&K is priced out of most people's ability to buy. I know, I know, people will say that the guns are "just that good" and worth every penny, even used. There has to be a point when you can pay a fair price and get what you pay for. I don't think that $1,000 is remotely reasonable for a polymer gun.
"If it bleeds...we can kill it." -Dutch, Predator
In reference to all the comparisons between Glock and HK, in a nutshell both are excellent in function and quality. Austrian vs German manufacture....both are superb (watch the frames however; HK is manufacturing in the U.S. as well; hopefully not the same mistake SIG made in moving manufacturing from Switzerland and Germany). I would personally not pay the ususal HK price for a U.S. made weapon.
The HK, in every comparison, is going to involve more parts, more finishing, and in some circumstances more refined function. HK is clearly not "just a name"; it is perhaps "The Name". The world's most elite military and LE teams are not using HK's by coincidence. Both weapons will get the job done and are exceeingly reliable. The HK models will often offer options that some may be seeking that are not available on a Glock. Is the price difference worth it? That's in the eyes of the user. You can't really go wrong either way.
"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6"
Flight Surgeon, USAF
Law Enforcement Tactical Surgeon
NRA Benefactor Member
Yes. They are super reliable, surgically accurate, and feed anything. About 10 years ago my USP40 broke a trigger bar in a match. This would leave any other handgun in the dead cockroach position. I didn't know the USP was having a probem. AThe trigger kept getting grittier and heavier, but it fired another 150 rounds. After the match I noticed that the safety wouod not move, took it apart and found the probem. People were amazed. The gun had over 70,000 rounds through it at that point (original 1993 version).
I have a USP in every caliber they offer, and duplicates of several. I own a Mark 23. The USP45 will break clay pigeons on the 100 yard berm at will if I do my part, right along with the Mark 23.
The magazine release is the best in the business, bar none. Faster than conventional designs and sure (certain)
d the Ma
Used, they are available for GLOCK-like prices I don't think I've paid over $500 for an HK except for one 45 and the Mark 23.
Remember, the cost of a hadgun will be forgotten long after the gun is still being enjoyed. Even if you have to pay more, it'll be forgotten after you shoot the gun a while. This is a gun you may hand down to your grandkids (if you love them).
"What does Marcellus Wallace LOOK like?"
If you'd have asked me a month ago I'd have said no, i briefly had a USP about 15 yrs ago and didn't care for it at all. Fast forward to just last week, was offered 45C in trade for my Green glock 21, took the trade and can say now, that YES they are worth the $. Easily my favorite auto pistol now bar none, made for my hand, just the right size, amazingly accurate! I'm considering dumping my carry glocks for another 45C, I can't offer higher praise than that.