So...are the H&K's really worth that much more?

I think HKs are massively over-engineered for the average civilian CCW holder's needs. If you told me I'd need to swim ashore and spend six months running through the desert with a handful of spare parts, no armorer in sight, and needed a pistol I could rely on utterly, I'd pick an HK every single time. That level of extreme reliability is not something I need during the daily commute, and there are more than enough other offerings out there with perfectly acceptable form and function for self-defense.

That crazy over-engineering sure is comforting, though. The fact that the P30 is arguably the most comfortable pistol I've ever held didn't hurt in the decision-making process, either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XDshooter

As a disclaimer and warning, this reply is a rant. I can't justify the price that H&K gets for a polymer gun. I'm sorry, but Sig is getting a comparable price for an all-metal gun.

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IMO, it's about the engineered reliability, tolerances. Not the materials. There's nothing to say that "plastic" must of necessity result in a less-costly build, and lower prices.

I owned an HK USP 40 for some time. It was a fine piece to be sure. Had a great double tap reset. Ran like a sewing machine. I found it to be an incredibly boring gun. I can't it explain it but it had the sex appeal of a dogs breakfast. It was too big for reasonable concealment and too light weight in caliber for a field gun. It simply didn't fit regardless of the quality. It's gone and still sitting in my LGS display case. For 2 years now. They come and go. Try it, you may like it. I just don't have the funds to keep "never gonna use it" guns unless there's something sentimental involved.

BTW, sex appeal in a gun, for me, comes in many ways. It's not just about appearance. But dependability alone didn't define sexy. Mixed with ability to conceal.....that would have gone a long way. One final comment; HK has a proprietary rail and for reasons that I can't explain that really chapped me. And I don't even use rails.

Hi,

I just recently went through this scenario and I when out and bought a couple HK's. Just being straight, they are not worth the money. For the same cost I can buy an all steel Sig Elite that is just so much more gun for the money. I even had a Bruce Gray 350.00 trigger job, and the HK was not even in the same world as my off the shelf Sig SRT trigger. My opinion is not about the dollar by the way, if we had this same thread on Sig and I was that I love them!

For all the HK lovers I understand design, reliabilty, but I just have to question the average joe and their shooting abilities, because the trigger is just piss poor. This isn't just to knock HK, I just tend to find that people want to believe that what they purchased is the best Glock, Sig, Colt, Ruger etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by C hawk Glock

Hi,

I just recently went through this scenario and I when out and bought a couple HK's. Just being straight, they are not worth the money. For the same cost I can buy an all steel Sig Elite that is just so much more gun for the money. I even had a Bruce Gray 350.00 trigger job, and the HK was not even in the same world as my off the shelf Sig SRT trigger. My opinion is not about the dollar by the way, if we had this same thread on Sig and I was that I love them!

For all the HK lovers I understand design, reliabilty, but I just have to question the average joe and their shooting abilities, because the trigger is just piss poor. This isn't just to knock HK, I just tend to find that people want to believe that what they purchased is the best Glock, Sig, Colt, Ruger etc.

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Did you pick up a DA/SA version or an LEM trigger? LEM's miles ahead of DA/SA, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by C hawk Glock

Hi,

I just recently went through this scenario and I when out and bought a couple HK's. Just being straight, they are not worth the money. For the same cost I can buy an all steel Sig Elite that is just so much more gun for the money. I even had a Bruce Gray 350.00 trigger job, and the HK was not even in the same world as my off the shelf Sig SRT trigger. My opinion is not about the dollar by the way, if we had this same thread on Sig and I was that I love them!

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The triggers are definitely the popular fall guy for HK, no doubt in that. I've got a P30L LEM with Grey Guns trigger job on it's way, I'm looking forward to seeing how it is for myself. C Hawk, was your P30 a LEM or DA/SA?

Regarding triggers in general, one of the things that's good about the HK is that if you don't like "X" you can switch around to some different types of triggers, granted that's not on all models but that's where good research pays off. I don't think I would opt for HK if I was looking for a traditional double action auto. In terms of DAO, well I guess we'll see. Again, I carry my HK45 and P30S cocked and locked so the double action trigger doesn't bother be, but one also has to remember that these first and foremost designed to be duty guns and that typically means heavier triggers.

Currently my HK45 and P30S are just fine with stock trigger parts (C&L). Only two mods were a heavier trigger return spring in the HK45 and a light firing pin spring in the P30S, that was actually more of a mechanical necessity after the slide geometry was changed.

If one takes the time, they'll get good with the trigger. There's plenty of different options out there for different preferences. Part of me wishes I had started with something heavier and less super than the 1911 trigger.

Regarding some of the commentary on the size of the pistols, while they do "feel" and look on the large side, they're dimensionally right in line with Glocks

Glock 19 Gen4
Length:
185 mm / 7.28 in.
Width:
30.00 mm / 1.18 in.
Height:
127 mm / 5.00 in.

HK USPC 9mm
Length
6.81 in.
Width
1.14
Height
5.00

Although the Glock has two more rounds in it.

Glock 17 Gen4
Length:
202 mm / 7.95 in
Width:
30.00 mm / 1.18 in.
Height:
138 mm / 5.43 in.

USP 9mm
Length
7.64 in.
Width
1.26 in. - takes into account larger control lever(s), overall slide and frame thickness is about the same as the Glock.
Height
5.35"

Again, two less cartridges than the G17.



I freely admit that I don't care for the USP that much, but the P2000, 2000SK, P30 and Hk45 lines are pretty nice.


Regarding Sig, I think some models are right up there with HK, the Elites sure are, but as for the rest of the guns, particularly of late I'm not sure if I'd compare them as an equal. Especially if you compare a polymer to a polymer. I'd love to see what HK could do with a modern steel/alloy framed service pistol. That or if HK does come out with a stiker fired polymer...well that will be interesting.


Guns come with pluses and minuses, some benefits out weigh the negatives, sometimes they don't. The HK trigger, while there is definite room for improvement is still very functional, and coming from a "1911 guy" that should say something. Yeah, it may take a little more work, but every gun takes a little work to get trough their nuances.

To be continued...

I like my HK triggers. I shoot the guns well, get good groups and speed. What's wrong with me? :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ripley16

i like my hk triggers. I shoot the guns well, get good groups and speed. What's wrong with me? :confused:

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:freak:



:biggrin2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JD

The triggers are definitely the popular fall guy for HK, no doubt in that. I've got a P30L LEM with Grey Guns trigger job on it's way, I'm looking forward to seeing how it is for myself. C Hawk, was your P30 a LEM or DA/SA?

Regarding triggers in general, one of the things that's good about the HK is that if you don't like "X" you can switch around to some different types of triggers, granted that's not on all models but that's where good research pays off. I don't think I would opt for HK if I was looking for a traditional double action auto. In terms of DAO, well I guess we'll see. Again, I carry my HK45 and P30S cocked and locked so the double action trigger doesn't bother be, but one also has to remember that these first and foremost designed to be duty guns and that typically means heavier triggers.

Currently my HK45 and P30S are just fine with stock trigger parts (C&L). Only two mods were a heavier trigger return spring in the HK45 and a light firing pin spring in the P30S, that was actually more of a mechanical necessity after the slide geometry was changed.

If one takes the time, they'll get good with the trigger. There's plenty of different options out there for different preferences. Part of me wishes I had started with something heavier and less super than the 1911 trigger.

Regarding some of the commentary on the size of the pistols, while they do "feel" and look on the large side, they're dimensionally right in line with Glocks

Glock 19 Gen4
Length:
185 mm / 7.28 in.
Width:
30.00 mm / 1.18 in.
Height:
127 mm / 5.00 in.

HK USPC 9mm
Length
6.81 in.
Width
1.14
Height
5.00

Although the Glock has two more rounds in it.

Glock 17 Gen4
Length:
202 mm / 7.95 in
Width:
30.00 mm / 1.18 in.
Height:
138 mm / 5.43 in.

USP 9mm
Length
7.64 in.
Width
1.26 in. - takes into account larger control lever(s), overall slide and frame thickness is about the same as the Glock.
Height
5.35"

Again, two less cartridges than the G17.



I freely admit that I don't care for the USP that much, but the P2000, 2000SK, P30 and Hk45 lines are pretty nice.


Regarding Sig, I think some models are right up there with HK, the Elites sure are, but as for the rest of the guns, particularly of late I'm not sure if I'd compare them as an equal. Especially if you compare a polymer to a polymer. I'd love to see what HK could do with a modern steel/alloy framed service pistol. That or if HK does come out with a stiker fired polymer...well that will be interesting.


Guns come with pluses and minuses, some benefits out weigh the negatives, sometimes they don't. The HK trigger, while there is definite room for improvement is still very functional, and coming from a "1911 guy" that should say something. Yeah, it may take a little more work, but every gun takes a little work to get trough their nuances.

To be continued...

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JD,

My trigger was DA/SA and Bruce Gray did the competition short reset package. Lets just say that I was not a happy camper shelling out 900.00 for the gun and another 375.00 for the trigger job just to make it somewhat shoot-able. Even after the trigger job, my Sig's with SRT were head and shoulders above straight out of the box. If it were not for the trigger I would have to admit that the HKP30 is the most ergonomic firearm I have ever owned. I just loved the feel of it and it was totally reliable. My only other complaint about that firearm is that I have not picked up a single P30 in which the right side of the slide release was not loose. It's a poor design in my opinion. It can be modded to take the play out, but it should not have to be. Minor complaint but a complaint all the while. I really hope your experience with the trigger job was better then mine. I sincerely mean that by the way. I wanted to love it, but just could not convince myself after picking up my two Sig Elites sitting right next to it. By the way the only reason I am bringing Sig into the post is because they are the only other SA/DA firearms I currently own to compare it too. I also feel that they are somewhat in the same price category.

With regards to the LEM trigger they are just not for me as my training has been with other trigger types.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by C hawk Glock

JD,

My trigger was DA/SA and Bruce Gray did the competition short reset package. Lets just say that I was not a happy camper shelling out 900.00 for the gun and another 375.00 for the trigger job just to make it somewhat shoot-able. Even after the trigger job, my Sig's with SRT were head and shoulders above straight out of the box. If it were not for the trigger I would have to admit that the HKP30 is the most ergonomic firearm I have ever owned. I just loved the feel of it and it was totally reliable. My only other complaint about that firearm is that I have not picked up a single P30 in which the right side of the slide release was not loose. It's a poor design in my opinion. It can be modded to take the play out, but it should not have to be. Minor complaint but a complaint all the while. I really hope your experience with the trigger job was better then mine. I sincerely mean that by the way. I wanted to love it, but just could not convince myself after picking up my two Sig Elites sitting right next to it. By the way the only reason I am bringing Sig into the post is because they are the only other SA/DA firearms I currently own to compare it too. I also feel that they are somewhat in the same price category.

With regards to the LEM trigger they are just not for me as my training has been with other trigger types.

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Well I'm getting the gun with the work all ready done, so I won't have any pre knowledge of what the trigger was like past dry firing some display models with the light LEM, this is a LEM gun, I don't think I would buy a HK to run DA/SA although I know plenty that run the gun fine in that format, it just takes some getting used to. My Hk45 has had the de-cocker function removed so I run it C&L like a 1911, same goes for my P30S, but I have yet to remove the de-cocker function of that pistol. Pending on how I like the LEM, I may alter the the P30LS to better accept the slide for my P30S...or I may just leave it as is, who knows.

Regarding the right slide release lever, I hear ya' on my HK45 it's solid, on my P30S it wiggles a bit. Doesn't bother me, but if it did I would just take it off. I also run a slim slide release lever on the P30S, not sure if that makes it wiggle any more or less, but it wiggles.

I've always had a love affair with Sig, I just hate where they put the slide stop. :embarassed: Like I said, all guns have their nuances and that is the one I can't get over.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zonker1986

I own a lot of pistols. Don't own either a SIG or an HK.

I don't drive a Mercedes either as my Toyota gets me there just fine.....I carry Glocks.

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Yeah, but when I drive a Mercedes I feel awesome. When I drive a Toyota...well....wake me up when I've arrived at my destination.

There's a lot of high-end gear that becomes commonly known only AFTER is has served flawlessly in the most severe conditions for folks who could have equipped themselves with ANYTHING. Sir Edmond Hillary didn't wear a Rolex as a fashion statement. Brian Redman didn't drive a Porsche at Le Mans to impress women. Abercrombie & Fitch didn't go to the North Pole with Adm. Peary and to Africa with Teddy Roosevelt because the clothes were stylish. And HK firearms didn't get their reputation because the Rolex-wearing, Porsche-driving guy dressed in an Abercrombie & Finch sweater at the gun range has one in his alligator-trimmed holster. HK got its reputation (and became known to "regular shooters") because a portion of the most elite, well-trained, hard-assed, door-kicking, terrorist-hunting, under-the-wire LEOs & military fire-eaters PICK HK to save their bacon. Are they worth it? Ask the guys who risk EVERYTHING.

Everyone has different attribute they admire in handguns. Do I believe you get 50% more reliability with an H&K over a Glock? No! I do however appreciate and admire the quality feel you get when comparing the two guns. The feel in my hand of my P2000 is unmatched except for my 1911 Commander Bobtail and that is important to me. I also prefer a hammer to striker, but that's me. Get what you like and can afford. If you shoot it well keep it or move on.

How much is your life worth??? That should answere your post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JD

Well I'm getting the gun with the work all ready done, so I won't have any pre knowledge of what the trigger was like past dry firing some display models with the light LEM, this is a LEM gun, I don't think I would buy a HK to run DA/SA although I know plenty that run the gun fine in that format, it just takes some getting used to. My Hk45 has had the de-cocker function removed so I run it C&L like a 1911, same goes for my P30S, but I have yet to remove the de-cocker function of that pistol. Pending on how I like the LEM, I may alter the the P30LS to better accept the slide for my P30S...or I may just leave it as is, who knows.

Regarding the right slide release lever, I hear ya' on my HK45 it's solid, on my P30S it wiggles a bit. Doesn't bother me, but if it did I would just take it off. I also run a slim slide release lever on the P30S, not sure if that makes it wiggle any more or less, but it wiggles.

I've always had a love affair with Sig, I just hate where they put the slide stop. :embarassed: Like I said, all guns have their nuances and that is the one I can't get over.

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The slide release was more of a pest to me because I am a lefty, but frankly I don't use it anyway. As far as the LEM and the trigger job, let us know what you think when it's completed. I am curious if it's just a DA/SA thing.