So...are the H&K's really worth that much more? - Page 7

So...are the H&K's really worth that much more?

This is a discussion on So...are the H&K's really worth that much more? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by wsquared I would respectfully disagree with you. Not that the Glock is not a good choice, just that the HK is also ...

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Thread: So...are the H&K's really worth that much more?

  1. #91
    Member Array aerodino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsquared View Post
    I would respectfully disagree with you. Not that the Glock is not a good choice, just that the HK is also a good choice.

    As far as a DA first shot goes: Many of the HK's have a manual safety in addition to a decocker, so they can be carried "cocked and locked" iwth a short and light SA trigger pull for the first round. Also, not being accurate with a DA first round is a training issue...not a pistol issue. If DA trigger pulls make guns inaccurate, then all revolvers must be inaccurate, right?

    Recoil: I find that the recoil from the HK I own is very manageable. I have not measured the height of the bore axis from the grip and compared it to a Glock 19 (it's direct correlation in the glock line), but I can definitely state that I do not find it sharp at all. I will also say that the HK45 is the softest-shooting .45 pistol that I've ever tried (and I've tried more than just a dozen)

    As far as grip size goes, some HK's (just like some glocks) have interchangeable backstraps to accomodate hands of different sizes. Having tried a number of Glocks and a number of HK's, I have to admit that I generally prefer the HK ergonomics. I don't complain about the Glock ergonomics like some folks love to, but I do prefer the HK method of doing things. Ergonomics in a pistol are very much a matter of personal preference.

    The Glock may represent better value for the money to many people, and is certainly lower in price....but different people define value differently - mostly because they place different valuations on different aspects of a pistol's performance. For instance, I find that the HK USP compact is a much better value for me, because a Glock 19 doesn't fit into my hands nearly as well as the USP. I place a high value on how well a pistol fits my hand - and I also place a high value on the over-engineering and obession with the "little details" that H&K seems to do so much of.
    I agree, the HK is also a good choice, But carry the HK "cocked and locked" adds a movement before firing condition. Not is reason in a DA/SA pistol.

    Ergonomics is a personal preference. I think that the GLOCK is more ergonomic for the most of the people.


  2. #92
    Member Array wsquared's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerodino View Post
    I agree, the HK is also a good choice, But carry the HK "cocked and locked" adds a movement before firing condition. Not is reason in a DA/SA pistol.
    As far as "adds a movement" goes, it comes down to a training issue once again. Ask a 1911 shooter how long it takes them to "wipe" the safety when they draw and present their pistol. That said, if it's a big deal, then simply fit the H&K in question with the LEM trigger...that's right, you can get your H&K with a nice, smooth double-action-only trigger that feels just as nice as a good striker-fired pistol trigger. One of the benefits of purchasing a pistol that's engineered by a firm that is driven by meeting the demands and specifications of militaries and government agencies around the world is that they offer different options within the same family of pistols (or model of pistol) to meet varying requirements between agencies without requiring a completely new pistol.

    As far as claiming that "Glock is more ergonomic for most of the people"....do you have any information to base that on?

  3. #93
    Member Array aerodino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsquared View Post
    As far as "adds a movement" goes, it comes down to a training issue once again. Ask a 1911 shooter how long it takes them to "wipe" the safety when they draw and present their pistol. That said, if it's a big deal, then simply fit the H&K in question with the LEM trigger...that's right, you can get your H&K with a nice, smooth double-action-only trigger that feels just as nice as a good striker-fired pistol trigger. One of the benefits of purchasing a pistol that's engineered by a firm that is driven by meeting the demands and specifications of militaries and government agencies around the world is that they offer different options within the same family of pistols (or model of pistol) to meet varying requirements between agencies without requiring a completely new pistol.

    As far as claiming that "Glock is more ergonomic for most of the people"....do you have any information to base that on?
    "Ask a 1911 shooter how long it takes them to "wipe" the safety when they draw and present their pistol."

    Do you know someone who carries HK cocked and locked? I do not know.



    "As far as claiming that "Glock is more ergonomic for most of the people"....do you have any information to base that on?"

    Yes, a lot of friends that have fired with HK and Glock. :D

  4. #94
    JD
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    Re: So...are the H&K's really worth that much more?

    Quote Originally Posted by aerodino View Post
    "Ask a 1911 shooter how long it takes them to "wipe" the safety when they draw and present their pistol."

    Do you know someone who carries HK cocked and locked? I do not know.



    "As far as claiming that "Glock is more ergonomic for most of the people"....do you have any information to base that on?"

    Yes, a lot of friends that have fired with HK and Glock. :D

    I do with all three of mine.



    Other than the mag release, I can't see ergonomics of the Glock being better, but that's just my opinion.

    Sent via Tapatalk 2, and still using real words.

  5. #95
    Member Array wsquared's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aerodino View Post
    "Ask a 1911 shooter how long it takes them to "wipe" the safety when they draw and present their pistol."

    Do you know someone who carries HK cocked and locked? I do not know.



    "As far as claiming that "Glock is more ergonomic for most of the people"....do you have any information to base that on?"

    Yes, a lot of friends that have fired with HK and Glock. :D
    I do indeed know someone that prefers hi HK cocked an locked....that would be me.

    May I also politely suggest that you're going to have to do better than "a lot of friends" if you're going to state that Glock is more ergonomic for most of the people? By "better" I'm suggesting that you'll need to provide a large sample size, more specific data, and some evidence of objectivity. However, if what you really mean to say is "I prefer the Glock I own to the H&K that I've tried", then please just say that plainly.


    JD....it is my considered opinion that you have far too many HK45's, and such a concentration of great pistols in one person's hands is altogether excessive. I represent the 99% of shooters that don't own 3 HK's, and I am calling for a more equitable re-distribution of HK's. If you fail to send me at least one of your HK's, I will start a non-violent protest by "occupying" my living room and singing protest songs (by such notable social activists as the Rolling Stones and ZZ Top). I will resolutely occupy my position until such time as my supply of freshly roasted coffee beans runs out....at which time I will start making an unholy noise and informing any government official that will listen to me that it is their responsiblity to tend to my needs, supply me with tasty food, and ensure that the thermostat is set to a comfortable level.


    Nope. Even after a year, it still sounds ridiculous. Worth a try though. What sort of RDS do you have on there?
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  6. #96
    JD
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    Re: So...are the H&K's really worth that much more?

    I will also say that despite the high bore axis and manual safety, that I can out shoot a lot of people with them.

    I'm nowhere near this good...but here is video of Todd Green shooting the HK45 in LEM with a sub 2 second Bill Drill (draw and fire 6rds), I don't think the high bore axis bothered him either.




    I understand the mechanics of the high bore axis, but the more and more I see of the argument and the better I get at shooting, the more I see people making excuses or just not learning how to run a pistol.

    I'm no Todd Green but I can still pull off a sub 3 second bill drill with a stock cocked and locked P30S. I can't wait to run some more drills with my tuned P30LS.

    Sent via Tapatalk 2, and still using real words.

  7. #97
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsquared View Post


    ....What sort of RDS do you have on there?

    Leupold Delta Point with the 7.5MOA triangle, more on it can be read here:

    Bowie Tactical Concepts HK P30S w/ Delta Point RDS

  8. #98
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    Re: So...are the H&K's really worth that much more?

    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    I will also say that despite the high bore axis and manual safety, that I can out shoot a lot of people with them.

    I understand the mechanics of the high bore axis, but the more and more I see of the argument and the better I get at shooting, the more I see people making excuses or just not learning how to run a pistol.

    Sent via Tapatalk 2, and still using real words.
    I agree with this. Different bore axis heights do make different guns feel well... different. However, speed, control, and efficiency are training issues.

    It does seem to be a recurring trend that people have to put much more effort into picking apart guns like H&K's and sigs than owners of the guns have to put in to learning how to run the guns effectively.

    sent via iCarry
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  9. #99
    Member Array GunsAndViolince's Avatar
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    I also carry my HK cocked and locked. But that's the great thing about them; they're so compatible with other guns. Say your EDC is an HK variant 1. Your bug could be mini 1911, or a CZ Rami or something so you would carry the HK cocked and locked. Or alternately, if your bug is a baby Glock, you could carry your HK with the DA first pull so you could train the same way. That's one of their many virtues in my opinion.

    And yeah, JD, your set of HKs is awesome. I guess I would qualify for that 1% of shooters with 3 Hk's if I could count my PTR-91. I am going to get another HK in the next year or so, but haven't decided if it will the the P30L or the full size 45. Decisions, decisions.

  10. #100
    Member Array nmbr5ml's Avatar
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    I should preface my thoughts by saying that I'm not really the type to be sentimental about firearms or buy one over the other because of how I feel about the country where they're made, whoever made them, etc. I'm going to shoot a bunch of rounds through it and expect it to work or I'll get rid of it. I used to have a bunch of handguns. Quite a collection. I was gone 3/4 of the time from 2002-2011 packing guns I didn't buy so I slowly passed most on to friends at discount prices. Just no reason to have all those handguns. The ones I kept probably show which ones I think are the best. HK USP .45 I bought in 1997, Glock 19 I bought in 1995 and Glock 30 I bought in 2003.

    Why I kept the USP, well it's hard to say exactly. It's too big. I can (and do) carry it concealed but you always know it's there, and it requires a near hyperextension of the shoulder to get that muzzle clear of the holster. The DA trigger sucks, too heavy, slack, gritty, but I'm used to it and handle it ok. The magazines are AWFUL. They wear out and stop locking the slide back every year or so it seems, replacing them is way more expensive than it should be, and the newer ones all make this annoying clinking sound when loaded with more than 10 rounds and inserted in the weapon. They put this stupid finger rest on the new ones too, just making the butt harder to conceal. You'd have to have hands the size of a catcher's mitt for your pinky to rest on that finger thing on the mag. Stupid.

    I've put thousands of rounds through that USP. The finish on top of the barrel is worn through and polished shiny. The slide shows significant wear from years in and out of the holster. It just had it's first malfunction (first ever) about 6 months ago when I dropped the hammer on a live round and nothing happened. When I picked up the round off the floor and reloaded it, it went off, and hasn't happened since, so that was probably on the ammo. I've accomplished feats of accuracy with that USP that are legendary with my friends, I mean 100 yards plus. Everything from skeet to a roadrunner. I absolutely trust it to shoot when I want it to and I absolutely trust it to hit what I aim at.

    Hard part about answering your question though, it was worth the the $$$ to me. Is it worth it in general? Probably not. I paid like 400 dollars for that Glock 19. It's a 9mm so guess which one has fired more rounds over the years. Only malfunctions can be attributed to running ammo I shouldn't have been, like a friend's bag of million year old, bulging reloads that I had to force into the chamber by hitting the slide forward. Not sure how many rounds it's fired but it would have to be into six figures. I still have the (original) high-capacity mags I bought when I got the Glock (It came with 10 rounders) and they still work great. The finish has held up better than the HK. My Glock 19 would look brand new if it wasn't a Gen 2 and obviously old. It is not as accurate as the HK but look at the size difference. It is still very accurate. I trust it to shoot every time, and, at least for defensive purposes, to hit what I aim at.

    So, in summary, yeah, the HKs probably are not worth the cost. You can get a perfectly serviceable weapon for much less. However, if you buy one, you'll probably feel like it was worth it anyway.

  11. #101
    JD
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    HK P30 Enhancements


    I have been carrying a 9mm HK P30 for my primary pistol for a while after having epic issues with my last newly purchased Glock 19. I have been very happy with the HK P30 with its out of the box performance. It is disturbingly reliable, has consistent and very positive extraction and ejection (even without a magazine), is more mechanically accurate than its more popular competitors, and actually doesn’t need anything done to carry as a working pistol. Mine is a V2 LEM that is the heavier of the LEM set-ups.
    Darryl Bolke is a retired SoCal police officer who spent 17 years assigned to SWAT as a firearms instructor and primary instructor on all firearm systems. Darryl also authored and created a program for L/E edged weapons use and issue knives for all officers, and assisted in the design of several knives. Darryl has worked several years on various private sector investigation and protection details, is a Pro Staffer for L/E with Aimpoint, and is the co-owner of Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS).

  12. #102
    Member Array wsquared's Avatar
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    I think I have an HK problem.

    I was in Gander Mountain today, and I picked up an HK45c. It's almost identical in size to my USPc, and holds 5 fewer rounds...but I honestly have to admit that I like the HK45 even more than the USP. I also like the idea of .45ACP in a defensive situations. Yes, I know that 9mm is perfectly adequate and shot placement is far more important than caliber choice....but I honestly shoot just as well with the 45c as I do with my 9mm USPc - and I shoot better with the full sized HK45 than I do with my 9mm USPc.

    I guess I can just hope (for my wallet's sake) that's it's a while before I see a full-sized HK45 sitting on a shelf, looking lonely.

  13. #103
    Member Array GunsAndViolince's Avatar
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    Ha! Told ya you'd like it! (post #83)

    Don't you find that the .45c feels slimmer than the blocky USPc? I love them both, but carry the .45 more comfortably. I too, am looking to acquire the full-size 45. I've admitted to myself it's just a matter of time and there's nothing I'll be able to do about it when opportunity and cash converge.

    Anyway, enjoy and congrats!

    Gav

  14. #104
    Member Array wsquared's Avatar
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    Yes, you did very definitely tell me. My hand is happy that you did....and my banker is irritated.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coltman 77 View Post
    HK's are worth every penny. Accuracy and especially total reliability are what we bet our lives on when we choose a firearm to protect us and our family.

    Here's a great post from a friend who "knows" HK's very well. I'd like to share it with you.

    Why HK pistols (and HK firearms in general) are more expensive than their competitors.

    1. Most are designed, built and tested to NATO MIL specs (ACC-225), not commercial specs. NATO specs includes tests not conducted by many commercial makers such as drop tests, obstructed bore tests, extreme temps, ice, static sand, OTB, elevated/depressed, etc.

    2. All (100%) of HK firearms are test fired and zeroed at the factory. In some companies only a % are tested.

    3. HK materials (steel, barrel, etc.) are of the highest quality available and it shows in long-term or worst case scenarios. The superior barrel performance is a good example, though you may never see it in casual use.

    4. HK pistols are not assembled by armorers’ students and then sold to customers. Some companies have been known to do so.

    5. The average German worker is paid at a far higher rate than the equivalent US worker. Part of the reasons why includes the mandatory training they must receive and tests they must pass before receiving the position. The cost of living in Germany is also higher and HK contributes to a substantial “Pensioner Fund” for its retirees. Many also work at the same company for decades and not uncommon are 40 year employees!) and therefore rise high on the pay scale for their extensive hard-earned skill and experience.

    6. HK barrels are made by a cold hammer forged process using a material that is unique to HK guns. Many barrels get special HK-unique steps added such as a tapered, poly, hybrid poly bore profile or induction hardening and all long-gun barrels are straightened. As an example, Stelite liners are not used in HK MG barrels – they are simply not needed and perform as well or better.

    7. Compare the polymer molding and machining of say an HK P30 and a SIG P229. It is RARE to see machining marks on an HK.

    8. HK rigorously tests their products to destruction in a "Firing Lab" manned with very senior test personnel before the design is frozen. This reduces the incidence of post-release issues. HK also takes and test its products at remote environmental test facilities to include desert (Yuma Proving Grounds, Saudi Arabia), arctic (Norway, Alaska), jungle (Brunei, Panama). That costs BIG bucks but pays off in hard core performance.

    9. HK guns are imported for the most part (or the parts used to assemble them in NH) are imported. That results in mandatory FET, freight and exchange rate subsidies being added and passed on to the customer. HK as a German gun maker and importer they also have to comply with stringent export controls and that too costs money, which gets passed along in sale prices.

    10. The cost of the production tooling (and materials) used by HK to produce, assemble and QA product is high as it includes QA tests and steps not conducted by many other makers. HK cut its teeth as a mass producer and still today builds the production tooling with that in mind – high volumes with a lot of automation. That tooling and gauging costs money as does the high hourly rates of the skilled workers and the additional time required to conduct it.

    11. 10-20% of HK’s annual operating budget is spent on its extensive “Technique” departments to include Design, Prototype Fabrication and the Firing Lab. These are the highest paid, most skilled workers at HK and that costs money as well. They are best of breed and always have many more projects up in the air then you might think, or know of (Phased Plasma Rifle in the 80 watt Range).

    12. HK places itself purposely in the “higher end” of the market. Like BMW and Mercedes HK knows it rates are higher and always will be compared to say Colt, S&W, Beretta, etc. So they go after superior performance and quality at a higher price point to fewer purchasers versus a cheaper, lower quality product to more buyers.

    13. @ 15% of HK annual revenue is reinvested in new products, and infrastructure. While that may not seem like a lot it is and the state of the factory at in Oberndorf shows it. Look at the state of their competitors factories. There are few that compare to HK GmbH in the eyes of those who have been to many others. HK spends the revenue it makes off of both commercial and Government sales on new product so in a way the US commercial buyer who purchases an HK45 pistol helps fund the development of the MG4 LMG or XM25.

    14. HK builds much of the weapon parts in house to maintain quality control. While cheaper subs are available one loses some control in doing so. HK’s goal has always been to minimize cost but maintain quality and to do so it keeps many items in house that in many others companies go to the higher bidder (magazines, small piece parts, etc.). HK also has some of the very best MIM and molding capabilities and can thus up the quality of their product by using their own, superior product.

    15. Like HK, HK’s subs are of a higher quality for the same reasons and with the same end results. You buy the very best frame mold in Germany, it will cost you but the end product is superior.

    16. Interchangeable parts – very few HK parts are not fully interchangeable without hand fitting. Even in a gun like the GMG, there are no parts that require hand fitting. This requires that each and every raw material and finished part, and each tool that fabricates the part, is dimensionally and exactly the same and maintained the same at all time by constant checks by skilled personnel with high dollar measuring devices and gauges. Again something you may never see but it insures when you replace a part it both fits and works w/o modifications.

    17. HK has voluntarily developed, tested and included in their product unique features like USP firing mode modularity, MK23 barrel O-rings, special high performance finishes, unique G36/HK416 gas systems, drop-in LEM trigger systems, side-loading 40mm grenade launchers, GMG’s with extruded aluminum receivers and HK211’s with Ti receivers, unique cartridges for things like MP7 and P46, etc. HK also makes over 100 models of HK firearms currently and 1000’s of modular variants for users the world over speaking many languages, which costs money to build, inventory, document and record these countless production variations.

    There are a few other reasons which I will not mention here.

    Hope this helps.

    G3Kurz
    Was going to search the HKpro forum for this. Excellent explanation right there.
    Philly Boy likes this.

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