How Reliable is Reliable Enough?

This is a discussion on How Reliable is Reliable Enough? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; 100% .... nothing less than that is acceptable to me. Never feel totally comfortable until I've shot a good 500 rds thru it with no ...

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Thread: How Reliable is Reliable Enough?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    100% .... nothing less than that is acceptable to me.

    Never feel totally comfortable until I've shot a good 500 rds thru it with no failures of any kind.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    How reliable is reliable enough, on a gun you're needing to avoid death at the hands of another? Pretty darned reliable, I'd say.

    We each have different levels of comfort for how far we're willing to extend trust in a defensive gun. Myself, I'm pretty comfortable that if 1000rds of all sorts have shown themselves to be highly reliable through a given gun, then it's highly likely that gun's going to perform when the chips are down ... 'cause I've already thrown everything at it I can think of, and it's performed as near to flawlessly as I can hope for. Perfect would be better, but I've only seen that on a couple occasions, and only after lengthy break-in on one of those. So, of dozens of defensive pistols, only one has performed this way, with only one being a close second.

    That's why I much prefer testing it. I'm a bit of a "show me the money" sort, when it comes to defensive firearm performance. Better than blind faith, IMO. It's a bit like the old Porsche motto: "There is no substitute."
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  4. #18
    Member Array Switchblade906's Avatar
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    For me it depends on the platform. For a 1911 style pistol it has to be perfection for 500+ rounds of FMJ and 300+ rounds of hollow point. Glock, Sig, or any other kind in that category is 300+ rounds of anything.
    Sig Sauer P229 SCT, Sig Sauer P938, Glock 19 Gen 4, Glock 17 Gen 3, Remington 870, Grandpa's Old Single Shot 12 Gauge

    America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. Abraham Lincoln

  5. #19
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    100% reliability under all conditions is the minimum acceptable level of reliability for a self-defense weapon, whether carried concealed or otherwise.

  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: How Reliable is Reliable Enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    100% reliability under all conditions is the minimum acceptable level of reliability for a self-defense weapon, whether carried concealed or otherwise.
    So uh, let me know when you find some 100% reliable machinery of any kind. Or do you mean >99.5%?

  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    So uh, let me know when you find some 100% reliable machinery of any kind. Or do you mean >99.5%?
    As stated in my previous post, both Glocks I edc have performed flawlessly through several thousand rounds.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
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  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: How Reliable is Reliable Enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    As stated in my previous post, both Glocks I edc have performed flawlessly through several thousand rounds.
    Well that'd be greater than 99.5!

  9. #23
    Member Array nwbackpacker's Avatar
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    "It seems like one would want a gun that can fire at least 10,000 rounds without a single failure. Is that practical? "

    In my opinion, no. Let's say you bought 9mm and loaded up on the cheapest FMJ ammo you could find at $10 a box delivered. That's $2000 worth of ammo you have to buy to reach that magical 10,000 round figure! Not to mention how long it would take to fire all that ammo once you had bought it. If you could get through 500 rounds in a trip to the range then you're looking at 20 trips to the range. If you did this DAILY you're looking at 3 weeks of firing away waiting for your gun to fail and hoping it doesn't so that you have to start all over again with the next gun once the first one failed the test.

    However, I'm not going to fire FMJ in this weapon for self defense. I'm actually going to buy Speer Gold Dot +P so shouldn't I make sure my gun can fire 10,000 rounds of that? At $25 a box (of 50, not the ripoff 20 round box) we're now looking at $5000 worth of ammo.

    So, if the question is more about whether this *type* of gun is supposed to be able to fire 10,000 rounds without a hitch then you really have to go by documented evidence of this occurring. But that's not YOUR gun, and aren't we supposed to be validating that OUR particular gun is good with the ammo I'm going to fire?

    For me, I'm happy with 4 or 5 boxes of FMJ, then a couple of boxes of SD ammo, and then I'm good.
    303british and aus71383 like this.

  10. #24
    Member Array nwbackpacker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    As stated in my previous post, both Glocks I edc have performed flawlessly through several thousand rounds.
    What if it fails on the 3001st round? :)

  11. #25
    Member Array nwbackpacker's Avatar
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    Another way to look at this is how many 9s of reliability you want. This is common in measuring service uptime for computer systems. Let's say you put X rounds through a gun without failure and then you load it up with your SD ammo and put the gun away ready for use. What you actually want to know is the probability of the NEXT round failing as that's the one that's likely to actually count.

    So if you've got X rounds through and the next one (the X+1th round) fails then you had 1-(1/(X+1)) % success rate, or "uptime" for the total round count. If X = 700 then your uptime is 1-(1/701) which is roughly 99.9% uptime. Not bad. If you were to fire 10,000 rounds flawlessly then your expectation of the next round being bad is obviously much lower. It would be 1-(1/10001) = 99.99%. 4 9s - pretty darn good, but probably overkill given the cost involved in reaching that point.

    Not sure if this is a correct mathematical model to use, but it seems reasonable to me based on my day job experience in computing.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by nwbackpacker View Post
    What if it fails on the 3001st round? :)
    Well past that already.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  13. #27
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    My Glock has been 100% reliable so far.

    Tomorrow I gonna try a second round.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    My Glock has been 100% reliable so far.

    Tomorrow I gonna try a second round.
    Provided that Andy gives you another cartridge.
    BurgerBoy likes this.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nwbackpacker View Post
    What if it fails on the 3001st round? :)
    If has been flawless for 3000 rounds but fails on one, and that one is not repeated anytime soon? Safe to say, then, that it's an aberration not likely to recur. That's the essence of testing, and of reaching a point where one has something more than blind faith in a weapon.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array multistage's Avatar
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    Anything can screw up. You could run 300 rounds and then have a failure or two, and then no troubles for thousands.

    Or your first two shots with a new, freshly cleaned and lubed gun can fail, and then run perfect for the next 5000 and beyond.

    I own several SIGs, Glocks, a Kimber, have owned a few M&Ps (waiting on a Shield), an XDm, a couple Hi Powers, and several others. The only ones that have ever wadded up on me were the Brownings and a Mil Spec Springer I had.

    But any of them could blow it at any given time. You can only do your best, and trust your gun to do the same.

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