Help with actions relative to safety

This is a discussion on Help with actions relative to safety within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Thanks everyone for the responses. My concerns stemmed from 3 things: 1. When I think DAO it means that it should be 100% safe unless ...

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Thread: Help with actions relative to safety

  1. #16
    Member Array Yarg28's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone for the responses. My concerns stemmed from 3 things:

    1. When I think DAO it means that it should be 100% safe unless I do something dumb. When I say 100%; i mean that i dont have to worry about safeties coming off, or the striker jumping a sear or anything else that is 100% out of my control.

    2. When I was reading the manual (i actually did that since this isnt a Bluray player) one of the first warnings in all red and underlined was something like "dont drive around with this thing loaded" pretty much referring to 4 wheeelers and stuff. BUT, when I read that type of warning I understand that a fair amount is liability mitigation but it also makes me think "huh, why not..if it's DAO i shouldnt have to worry about that." Then i start digging.

    3. while digging i find about a million "shade tree gunsmiths" arguing about whether or not the M&P is a DAO or not. I really believe that most of the debate centers around historic notions of what DEFINES SA, SA/DA, DOA, etc. Mostly semantics. BUT, I read some compelling arguments about the "function" of the trigger and people basically saying that "yea, the sear rocks. but it doesnt really DO anything relative to the striker force" i.e. the striker is in full force position when the slide is pulled rearward and the striker does not move rearward any further when the trigger is pulled. That bothered me.

    I FINALLY found, this morning, a diagram that showed the spring compression with measurements and explained how the mechanism functions. Then, Mike1956 posted the animation that helped confirm further what I was hoping.

    I can now carry with some peace of mind. Although, I'm certain that tonight I will disassemble and measure the mechanism myself so that i can see it with my own eyes. Trust but Verify.


    Thanks again.

    gary

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  3. #17
    Member Array Yarg28's Avatar
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    and to clarify to Eric357,
    The summary that I saw showed that the striker is really probably closer to 70-80% "cocked" relative to force required to fire. The problem that many people have is that they dont realize that the more you compress the spring the more compression force increases. In other words, while it may look like the spring is "barely" moving, the force that that extra movement gives is a larger proportion of the total force required. I hope that makes sense the way i described it.

  4. #18
    Member Array Yarg28's Avatar
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    GH----"As a word of caution - when handling your gun (reholstering, etc.) & you drop it, let it fall. DO NOT try to catch it!"

    Ok, thanks for this! This is probably one of the most important things i've been told since looking into gun safety. Myself particularly; I have a ridiculous ability to catch things that are falling. I mean, mid air, high speed stuff, I can catch before it hits the floor. I caught a ladies smartphone a few days back. She knocked it off of a high counter in a store and it flew like 4 feet away from her heading to the floor. I snagged it out of the air. It's just a natural thing for me to do. So, I can gaurantee that I would have tried to catch my gun.

    Now the question is, how do i train that out of myself. I'm not gonna drop my gun hundreds of times :p

    Thanks again, seriously, it was an "aha" moment.

    gary

  5. #19
    cj
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    Back on my soapbox...but I HIGHLY recommend some good training, beyond a basic course. There are plenty of really good instructors out there who should be able to get you much more confident and comfortable. It may take a multi-day course, but there are so many aspects to carrying a firearm that it's simply not possible to really get a good feel for all of them by reading about it.

    With some proper training, DA, SA, safeties, many of the big red lawyer-required red notations in the manual, and on and on won't make nearly as much of a difference to you as proper support gear and safer techniques in using a concealed weapon. A good example of the latter would be some very good shooters I know who shoot competitively and are excellent weapon manipulators who have exceedingly dangerous concealed draw stokes...from clothing getting in the way to accidentally muzzling their support hand in their confusion of getting everything out and in place...a couple of classes and they're much safer!

  6. #20
    Member Array Yarg28's Avatar
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    cj,
    thanks for response. And yes, i definitely plan on getting a lot of training and practice. I was trying to select and confirm that I made a good selection before I wasted time and money. I didnt want to get to the training and realize that I made a mistake for my comfort level. We have a very nice training facility here that i'm pretty excited about.

    gary

  7. #21
    Member Array Dooger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dooger View Post
    Yup!

    You can also carry on an entry chamber for a while until you get more comfortable. Baby steps...
    I just noticed that the iPad auto corrected "empty" to "entry". Sorry for any confusion...

  8. #22
    Member Array Jackster's Avatar
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    Hello, Gary. I am relatively new to handguns, too. Although I have been around them all of my life, I never had the desire to get one until last year.

    My first handgun was.is a Glock 19. When I first got it, I was concerned, too, about the same fears you have expressed...plus the though of accidentally shooting my gonads off. Yes, from what you describe, it sounds like a DAO, which is very safe as long as your finger stays off the trigger until you are ready to fire.

    My grandfather taught me to shoot in the 1970s (I am 52). He never taught me to keep the finger off the trigger...I never heard that safety rule until the 21st century, but it is a great rule! I adhere to it almost religiously, now. Anyway...unless the trigger is pulled the gun will not fire. I imagine some cocked, single actions may do so when dropped onto a hard surface, but we won't go there.

    Keep your fingers off the trigger and out of the trigger guard. Get a good holster, and practice, practice, practice.
    And by all means keep your finger out of the trigger guard.
    Have fun and stay safe.
    John

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array bzdog's Avatar
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    Help with actions relative to safety

    As BugeDude implies, consider the holster itself a "safety". As noted it should fit the firearm properly and cover the trigger and retain the firearm even with strenuous movement.

    Your finger is another safety. It should not be on the trigger until you are pointing at your target.

    Practice with your firearm unloaded and the firearm pointed in a safe direction safely drawing and pressing out towards your target then reholstering with the specific goal of reinforcing muscle memory to keep that finger off the trigger. Don't rush. Did I mention keeping the finger off the trigger?

    As noted, modern firearms won't fire unless the trigger is pressed. Your proper holstering and finger discipline will prevent the trigger from being pressed.

    And remember the four rules:

    - Always treat the firearm as if it is loaded.
    - Never point the firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy.
    - Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on the target.
    - Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

    -john

  10. #24
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    This is an excellent thread with a lot of great advice. Thanks to all for your input.

  11. #25
    Member Array GunsAndViolince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yarg28 View Post
    I shot a couple boxes and then put the gun in the closet
    Speaking of "Safe..." Get one, eh?

    If you are really worried about this, I have two suggestions for you. The first is to get a gun that can be carried DA first pull and has a safety that can be engaged EVEN WHEN the hammer is down. Many HKs operate like this as well as the FN FNP (FN guys, correct me if I'm wrong) in models equipped with a safety/decocker. But there aren't that many guns, particularly smaller ones, that have this capability and the simple reason is that it isn't necessary. I carry my HK cocked and locked (because I'm jonesing for a Sig p938 so I want to be used to the safety) but I used to carry it DA first pull no safety and felt good about that, too. You'll get there, and you've got a lot of people giving you good advice and rooting for you!

    My second suggestion is to field strip your gun a lot. Maybe every day? The better you know it, and I mean really, really know it, the better you'll feel about it, the more you will trust it (assuming you put it back together right which I'm sure you will).

    Best wishes and stay safe!

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array nontechguy's Avatar
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    The number one safety is between your ears. That would be your brain.
    "The time is now near at hand which must determine whether Americans are to be freemen or slaves."
    ------------------------------------ George Washington 1776
    Gun free zones
    are safe havens-
    FOR CRIMINALS

  13. #27
    Member Array firecrackerktm's Avatar
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    My first pistol was a Sig P229, DA/SA. I did not carry one in the chamber for a little while until I became comfortable with it. I always had it in a holster of some type that covered the trigger. It really didn't take long before I felt good about carrying it with a round in the safety. I also practiced a little (with an empty gun) drawing while keeping my finger up on the slide well away from the trigger. (really should get a plastic gun).

    My newest 2 guns are 1911s. Again at the very first I felt a little weird about cocked and locked--something about looking at it, even with the safety on, and seeing the hammer back. But again it didn't take long before I felt good about it. Now it doesn't bother me in the least. I do need more practice thumbing off the safety when I draw. Again, I should get a plastic gun for this. Even an empty gun that I've checked 10 times makes me feel weird.

  14. #28
    Member Array Yarg28's Avatar
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    Thanks for all of the responses. Lots of good info. Now I just have to get a good iwb holster.

    Love this forum.

  15. #29
    Member Array stevenshizzle's Avatar
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    I have a Glock 19 and feel safe with it. As a matter of fact, I prefer striker fired because I'm not a fan of an external hammer. What I found was that if I handled the weapon frequently and made good use of snap caps, I could learn good habits and build muscle memory without having to take any safety risks. The fact that the Glock didn't have a safety initially bothered me, but I purchased it because I need something reliable. The only other safety I need to think about now is the one between my ears. My safety practices seemed religious at first, but they've now become more like second nature.

  16. #30
    Member Array Bdogdaddy's Avatar
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    It took me literally weeks of carrying before I realized I felt safe carrying with a round chambered. I've been around guns for decades (bitter-sweet being able to say that) and I know a modern handgun won't fire on its own. But it frightened me. One day I was practicing some dry-fire, and I realized how long it took me to draw, manipulate the slide, and get a solid sight picture. Comparing that to the amount of time it takes me to move 30 feet across the room, I suddenly felt I was less safe by not having a round chambered. From that moment, I started carrying ready to go. I think the fact that you're concerned about it shows your head being in the right place. But the gun's main safety feature is the mind that controls the hand holding it.

    Regarding holsters, I personally like Theis Holsters. I like his communication, his pricing, and his products. That type of holster is very comfortable to me. Holster choice is personal, and his are the best to me. I highly recommend him to anyone who asks. A sturdy belt really makes a difference as well.

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