This is a discussion on Beretta Bobcat 21A: .22 or .25 for CCW? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I also have a .22 bobcat which I like. However just to fart around with not for cc. I understand your prob however....
I also have a .22 bobcat which I like. However just to fart around with not for cc. I understand your prob however.
Kahr CM9, Beretta PX4 SC .40, Ruger LCP/LM, Dan Wesson .357, Beretta 21A .22, Four Aces .22, H&R .22, Marlin .22 rifle and 1946 Remington 12 gauge.
I think my Bobcat 21a only sees time at the range. Very fun to shoot but I can not recommend it for SD purposes. Just save your 5.7 brass and reload. There are several recipes on the internet.
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Hey everyone, a big Thanks! I thought people would laugh at me when I asked my question - but you've all been very understanding which I really appreciate.
So you can avoid the same hand problems I'll tell you how mine happened:
Like I said I was told I had arthritis to begin, "Basal Joint Arthritis, but with repeated small injuries from BAD ANGLE OF GUNS I shot I really made it much worse. You know that test for gun-position?: you stick your thumb and forefinger out and they make kind of a "V" - then the hilt of the gun is in the middle of the "V" and exactly mid-way - and should point straight? Well, I have 2 guns with a bit long, (for me), trigger reach. Also, I draw and shoot live-fire at the range and sometimes I'm sure grabbed the gun with hand incorrectly on the hilt. Either makes you compensate by moving your gun so it now angles slightly wrong, and the axis of the gun and recoil go right into the thumb/wrist joint instead of the "meaty" part of the hand down its middle. Now, my right hand has the thumb bone out of place, bone fragments + deformed joint from arthritis. And the non-dominate hand, while not as bad, is bone on bone in the same joint of left hand - no cartilage left.
So BE CAREFUL OF GUN POSITION! Don't buy a gun that gives you even a bit long trigger reach. Work with your guns so they always point straight using the "V"-test. Otherwise if you shoot high-caliber guns like me that thumb-bone is whacked into the wrist/thumb joint just like if you hammer a stick into another over and over. No wonders hands get screwed up.
Doctors may operate after awhile but they try steroid injections into those joints and gave me hand-splints first, I wear the latter when I shoot - which right now is almost always a .22 or 5.7 x 28mm. I have to sell my 45s, including a beaut of a revolver in 45acp, a S&W 625JM - only a 150 rounds thru it. That gun was too long a trigger reach, and after firing it but twice my hands really blew up.
Others have it much worse than I do though - just think of those parents of the dead children in Conn. from the school-shooting. So, I'm lucky. This is nothing compared to others' suffering.
I have a Bobcat 21A. It has never been what I would call truly reliable. Perhaps I have not yet found the right ammo for it. The .25 is more reliable but less potent than a .22LR. There is also the Tomcat which uses a .32 round. These are very good carry guns but you should be aware that many owners have complained about the frame cracking, although this doesn't seem to be a problem with the Inox version. Meanwhile, to answer your question, strictly speaking, there's nothing wrong with the little Beretta for carry, as long as your particular gun isn't prone to misfeeds. And for people that think the gun's not lethal enough, the Mossad used them for years as their standard carry gun.
I have a SS 21A and do on occasion carry it. I keep it loaded with CCI Velocitors or Stingers. It has never failed in any way, shape or form. No failures even with standard ammo. Stingers produce a BIG FLAME.
Although I haven't shot any of the pictured pistols in a decade or two, I recall my two .25ACP Berettas were significantly more reliable than their .22LR stablemate (Which was, by the way, more trustworthy than the nearly unobtainable Walther TPH), But I'd expect a centerfire, semi-rimmed FMJ cartrige to be more reliable in the tight confines of a mousegun than an externally lubed, lead bulleted rimfire. The .25's stack more neatly in the magazine (and you get one more). It also seems that .22LR duds are more frequent these days.
When comparing ballistics, be aware that .25ACP test data reflects a typical mousegun barrel, where .22LR tables typically report numbers from much longer barrels. The .22LR typically has somewhat better commonly published numbers, but ultimately, reliability is paramount in guns such as these.
The three thirty-year-old Berettas pictured have light, silky smooth double-action triggers with a remarkable single-action letoff, which may be just right for the original poster's situation, as opposed to a DA revolver.
I'd suggest getting a the .22 for practice AND the .25 to carry. These guns are relatively affordable, and .22 ammo will eventually reappear and allow inexpensive practice.
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(Discontinued) Beretta Model 20 .25 ACP
Walther TPH (W.German) .22LR
Beretta Model 21A .22LR and .25ACP
Last edited by Glockwatcher; February 10th, 2013 at 10:36 PM. Reason: clarification (in bold type)
The .25 ACP is, by far, more reliable than the .22 LR. The problem with the .22 LR is that "penetration is the "raison de 'etre" for the pocket pistol round. The foregoing poster was in error. In 1984, Jan Libourel in the July edition of "Pocket Autos" ran the .22 LR against the .25 ACP in barrels of equal length. While the velocities were nearly dead equal, the heavier FMJ of the centerfire cartridge provided better penetration. The .25 ACP, in a new Beretta can be loaded with (dare I say it) 2 grains of Unique behind a 51-grain Remington FMJ slug this generates 99 fpe and will attain excellent penetration. This outclasses the .22 LR by a damned sight!
NOTE: This load may not be safe in your pistol, but is has been shown to be safe in at least one Beretta Jetfire with a tip-up barrel.
I haven't had many bad rimfire primers when I figured out which ammo to use and once all the craziness calms down you can probably find ammo again. For the sake of ammo price I would be tempted by the .22. Second the revolver suggestion.
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I would be another that would lean towards a revolver in 22mag. The manual of arms may be just as easy on the OP's hands as the Beretta's tip up barrel.
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I recently added a 950 Jetfire 25 and a 21A 22LR to my testing gear. Really wasn't sure what to expect from the 25 and was very disappointed by the velocity. Sellier and Bellot was giving me 650 fps and about 10" of gel penetration. I have Fiocchi and Remington FMJ to test and see if they deliver better velocity.
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First off the 25 is much more reliable than the 22. As for performance they are close, I lean to the 25 over the 22. My choice is the beretta tomcat in 32 nice gun, recoil isn't bad. Here are a few more light recoil guns. Walther 32 ppk, the 22 mag revolver, Rugers newest LC380, and if you own a 38 snubby Hornady just came out with a light 38 special with a 90 grain bullet in critical defense.
I vaguely recalled that article as appearing about the time I acquired those guns pictured (and made me wish my TPH was a .25ACP), but could not recall the author and still cannot find it online. Nonetheless. I never relied upon those mouseguns as they were against departmental guidelines (i.e. I'd be on my own if had I used them on the job instead of the approved J-frame backup). I do recall my personal conclusion at the time was that regardless of whatever round had better terminal ballistics, the .25 was more mechanically reliable in a autopistol than the .22LR.
Since retiring, the smallest caliber pistol in my active carry lineup is a Seecamp LWS380 knuckle buster, which almost never leaves my safe. My .22 and .25 mousers are enjoying retirement. It's interesting to note that the Seecamp is smaller than either the Berettas of the Walther, as illustrated by the identically-sized LWS32 depicted below:
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Once again thanks all!
I bought the used Beretta 21a in .25 cal. I shot a couple of rounds the range owner gave me to test it with my hands - I'd say it popped like a small firecracker rather than recoiled like a gun. So, with that settled how could I resist - the least I've ever paid for a gun: $160 and I traded a Browning .22 Buckmark Camper for that - 3 yrs old. Liked the Browning but a target gun more than a Carry.
I'll give you a report once I shoot it with more ammo. What I was surprised with was the gun, though so small, was easy to grip and point. Didn't require repositioning
Now, when I Carry it, I'll have to remember I have a gun on. I bet small guns are the ones you read about being found in people's pockets at airports! A big NO-NO.