Defensive Carry banner

Negligent Discharges--how do they happen?

6K views 62 replies 51 participants last post by  ANGLICO 
#1 ·
I'm curious as to how these negligent discharges actually happen. The descriptions are always so vague ("it just went off"). Is it a forgotten round in the chamber? Do some guns fire when dropped, or the hammer is caught by a wandering thumb or piece of clothing? If it's happened to you or someone that's told you "the real story", please fill us in on how this happens so that we all can learn from these experiences and not let it happen to us.
 
#29 ·
Accidentally dropping a handgun and then attempting to catch it in midair rather than just letting it hit the ground or floor.

Shooters practicing for competition that try to speed ahead of their skill level and leave a finger inside the trigger when re-holstering.
 
#30 ·
There are many many situations that can result in a negligent discharge but they all require that a round be in the chamber. If there is no round in the chamber and no posssibility of a round getting into the chamber, ie, mag inserted in gun and slide is racked, then there can be no NG.

Mine was like a lot of other people's NG's. Carelessness. I emptied the six rounds from a Ruger revolver. Handed it to my so-in-law and told him to try the trigger. He did and the one round that I failed to get out of the gun did what it was supposed to do. It made a big bang. I learned a lot about gun saafety that day.
 
#31 ·
I've never had one, and never plan to.

What I worry about is "brain freeze." Where you simply go blank and are moving by rote and screw up. That's why it is very important every time you handle a firearm that you stop, focus on what you are doing and follow the rules to the letter.

As an example, I'm sure many of us have had instances when driving a car where you simply "didn't see" another car or bicycle until it was right on top of you. Hopefully you focused on it before a collision. I think many accidents happen when people simply lose focus and their brain doesn't connect to the eyes momentarily.

Same with guns. It is SO easy to get so comfortable with guns that someone hands you one and you have a momentary lapse and BANG! You have to train yourself to every single time to stop and focus on what you are doing. Another situation is breaking a personal rule. Like in our house, any holstered gun is loaded, while guns in cases or the safe are unloaded. We are iron clad about this. But again it only takes one failure to somehow put a loaded gun into the safe, and then if you have such a personal rule - and don't follow the standard rules by failing to double check the gun when you pick it up, BANG!

Never lose focus.
 
#38 ·
Firearms safety and safe gun handling should be etched into you muscle memory just as much or more than any activity involving a firearm. Practice these safe gun handling techniques just as often as you practice shooting. Incorporate into you trainig regimen loading, unloading,safe direction, finger off the trigger, check your gear often for things that could be a problem. Check holsters, no loose shirt tail or jackets to get hung up on when you holster. Any firearms accident or ND can be traced back to a failure to do something you should have been doing on a regular basis. We all love to shoot but it's "not fun" to do these safety drills, but if you do them regularly, you shooting will always be fun.
 
#32 ·
I have seen a few ADs. Most common: transition from double action to single surprises shooter with the difference in the pull. This one can put a bullet into an overhead baffle at the range. Check it out next trip. 2. Fast draw practice. Muscle memory trains you to pull the trigger whenever the gun presents and the gun is loaded. Your hand is faster than your brain. 3. Shooting an empty gun. It wasn't. Most common is to bring a gun home from the range that was never cleared. I have never ADed like this but have ejected live rounds prior to cleaning more times than I care to admit. 4. Lowering the hammer after racking the slide to chamber the first round. 5. Racking the slide with your finger in the trigger guard. 6. AD when lowering the weapon. Common with semi autos with a DA/SA trigger. A variation of 1, but this time it is the weight of the gun that adds the extra pressure on the trigger.
 
#33 ·
I would guess, and it's only a guess, two issues cause many/most NDs on semi-auto handguns:

Poor clearing technique. I see people clear handguns by dropping the magazine and racking the slide a few times, and calling it clear. I highly recommend dropping the magazine, racking the slide at least twice and then locking it back. Inspect visually AND physically to ensure the chamber is empty and the mag well is empty. This is particluarly important on guns that require a final trigger pull to field strip. This would prevent the common mistake of reversing the order and racking the slide first. then dropping the magazine and leaving a live round in the chamber.

Watching people shoot at a public range I see many of them have very poor trigger finger discipline. When they pick up a pistol the finger automatically goes inside the trigger guard and rests on the trigger. They may (or may not) get away with that at the range shooting with a benched gun, but when the shooter starts to learn drawing from a holster things can go sideways easily. Taking the time to practice "on target on trigger, off target off trigger" until it's a habit is worth the time invested.

Picking up a gun without checking to see if it's loaded (even if you think you've checked it before) and trying to catch a dropped gun in the air are probably also high on the list, but I'd guess trigger finger and improper clearing are the major causes.
 
#35 ·
Todd, go back and re-watch that video wmhawth posted.

See how the guy shoots himself? When he goes for the draw he grabs the trigger. His finger should have been indexed along the frame. So of course he winds up in the ER.

Also, notice how nervous and shaky he is? Babbling at the camera, all hyped up, looking at the camera, then ahead, no focus whatsoever. It's the anatomy of a ND in action.

Like you, I've made the transition from wheel guns to semi-auto 9mm, and haven't had any problems thanks to being religious about the rules of safety. Let's review just because:

1. Treat all firearms as if they are loaded. (You don't assume a gun is empty until you verify this for yourself.)

2. Don't point a firearm at anything you don't intend to shoot. (Always point muzzle in a safe direction.)

3. Don't put your finger on the trigger until ready to fire. (Almost all accidents happen because a finger was on the trigger.)

4. Be sure of your target and your backstop. (Know where your bullet is going and where it will go if you miss.)

Follow these rules and be crazy about them. Even when cleaning a gun, never point it or any of its parts toward yourself or anyone else.
 
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#36 ·
Someone mentioned 'active retention' holsters. The ones where you have to press the release with your index finger to draw are the most dangerous in a SHTF situation. In the heat of the moment the finger presses to release and then as the gun is drawn, the finger, if not straightened, goes right to the trigger. Many NDs from this. This has caused some holsters to be banned from service use and also many firearms classes.
 
#37 ·
Most firearms accidents are caused by ignorance or carelessness. I know that sounds simple, and it is. They are either not familiar with how to operate the gun they have, or they get so comfortable they get careless. Improperly unloading a semi- auto is a major cause by novice and the experienced. Being distracted and racking the slide then dropping the magazine ( which we know is bass ackwards) is a major cause of alot of serious injury or fatalities. They forget the one in the chamber. Most modern guns have safety devices to prevent discharge if the gun is dropped. It always gets me when they are called accidental discharge. You may not have intended it to happen, that is not an "accident" it is negligence.
 
#39 ·
I think I have come close reholstering an LCP, condition 1, into a cross breed micro-clip IWB holster. I think my belt was tight enough that the holster squeezed into the trigger guard (or maybe I was just clumsy). As it slid in, I felt the tension change as the trigger started dragging.

Now I use OWB.
 
#41 ·
With hand guns often the mag is removed with a round still chambered, next thing you know bang. That is why the mag safety came to be.
But of course the first thing people did was find away to remove it.
It happens every time it does no excuse for it but it happens.
 
#43 ·
I had a friend of mine who many years ago was playing [ yes playing] with his loaded 44mag. Which he dropped while fiddling with it. Since it was cocked and Murphy's Law being what it is [ almost] it landed on the hammer and proceeded to blow a big hole in his calf. He was luckier than you could possibly imagine. For one he wasn't looking right at it and for two he couldn't have shot himself in the calf in a better location without doing major[ relatively speaking] damage.
The aftermath even looking at it a month later was impressive.
I had one ND a long time ago with the 12ga pump I had pointed in the air[ we were out in the desert hunting jacks] I thought the safety was on when I put my finger on the trigger. It wasn't, big wake up call.
I just drill the four basic gun rules in my head on a regular basis.And add "every gun is loaded all the time,every gun you see,every gun you smell, in a store,at a farm, on a table,on tv everywhere all the time"[ a version of #1]
Excellent thread and posts btw
 
#44 ·
I came very close once, finger on the trigger of a 1911 with the thumb safety off. :eek5: It scared me so bad I don't think I touched a gun for about a week. To this day I thank God that I realized what I was about to do before I had a ND. Now if I'm dry firing there is no live ammo in the same room.



Every gun is always loaded, all of the time.
 
#45 ·
It happens when the handler of the firearm does something, other than intentionally pulling the trigger, that causes the trigger to be manipulated in such a way that results in a round being fired.
 
#48 ·
I had a ND years ago and luckily nothing damaging occurred. I did what all ND are caused from... i put my finger on the trigger without thinking. Never fear a gun... Unless your at the other end but always DO respect a gun. Know what it is capable of and remember that. In my hometown we recently had a ND in a movie theater by an off duty correctional officer . I never got the exact answer but was told he was "adjusting" his holster. Either way, he did something wrong. I won't carry with a round chambered just because If something did happen I would feel like an idiot and worse if someone accidentally were there at the wrong place and wrong time and was hurt.
 
#50 ·
I had a ND when I was 12 years old. Hunting with my Dad on the family farm, we stopped to talk to other hunters. I flipped off the safety to unload the bolt action 30-06, and BANG. Shot into the ground. Am 99% sure I didn't pull the trigger. Never touched a rifle again.
 
#51 ·
One thing I worry about is when I unload my Colt Officers and have to reinsert the mag with an empty chamber. Rack a live round in the chamber and put the safety on......what will happen when things get not right internally and the slide close and the hammer follows! Eventually with enough wear, the sear engagement will wear down.
 
#54 ·
It just went off ... I swear!

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2
 
#55 ·
Negligence is more properly a legal term and something to be proved in court. Everything can be traced back to a an action someone did. We do not call car accidents or work place accidents "negligence" until there is court case to determine that. Anyway, semantics aside, an unintentional discharge occurs when there is a mental lapse plain and simple other wise it would not be negligence but rather intentional. This is why I think it is ridiculous to say that your brain is the best safety rather than mechanical ones. Our brains do not have a good record in providing us with safety in most things that we do like driving, fire prevention, having babies and many other things in our life. In fact, our brains are so bad as safeties that we have all sorts of laws to require that we do things to keep us safe. We also have all sorts of devices installed into devices we use daily to protect us against accidents. Anyone who thinks they are above others simply because they have not yet had a mental lapse that resulted in any type of accident is just one of those whose turn has not come yet. We are human and as such we have mental lapses. Even with the careful attention you can have an unintentional discharge.

In my case after many thousands of rounds downrange in competition and clearing my 1911 thousands of times, one day I saw an empty chamber that was not empty and fired a round in a safe direction through my wall an into the unworked farm next to my house. After talking about it with my gun club members I found that those who routinely handle guns often have these unintentional discharges. Most are harmless since they use a bulletproof backstop or had it occur at a range, etc.. Others lost a finger or have holes in their feet or legs as a result of handling a gun so much that I became routine. Much like you do not think about tying your shoe laces and are surprised when one breaks because you did not inspect them before tying them.

In researching my case I found that it is common for the brain to see what it has been trained to see. If it sees a few hundred thousand empty chambers over 40 years, it is likely to see an empty chamber when it is not empty which is what happened to me. Lesson learned and now I also use my finger to check the chamber. Even then, it is possible to forget to do that because we are humans and stuff like that happens which I why I like manual safeties on my guns and all my carry guns have them. To me a gun safety is not a safety unless it is designed to prevent me from pulling the trigger when I did not intend to. All those other safeties are there to protect the manufacturer against lawsuits, not to protect you against the limitations of the human mind. They have done a good job in convincing people that a lack of manual safeties is a good thing and saved themselves a few bucks in the process. There is nothing wrong in including a manual safety that the user can choose to use or not. Several guns are like that and I think that is the best idea. I know all the talk about the safety going on safe accidently or forgetting to take it off safe but just because something is possible does not mean it is likely. Most of the people who say these things never fired a shot in anger and simply repeat what they read on the internet. Try to find any significant sampling of people killed due to a manual safety. You will not find more than one or two and they were LEO. You will however find quite a few cases where a manual safety saved lives.

So, after my lecture above I will answer the OP's question. The answer is very simple, loaded guns with nothing to prevent someone from pressing the trigger mixed with a brain that is prone to mistakes, is what causes most "negligent" discharges. For anyone interested Google to find the recent studies that show that even well trained professionals sill seek the comfort of their trigger when under stress. This has twice been proven by video taping training sessions of professionals and then asking if any of them put their finger on their triggers. To a man they all said heck no but then were showed the playback where some of them had their fingers on the triggers for a good period of time and did not even know it. Further studies involving additional training seem to indicate that some people cannot be trained not to seek the comfort of their trigger as it may be an ingrained reaction to the threat of danger much like other responses we have when faced with life threatening situations. Something to think about for those who think it is as easy as saying keep your finger off the trigger to make the world a safer place for gun owners. Saying drive safely does not seem to work either. :)
 
#56 ·
I can foresee two kinds of ND's- one is where you're convinced the gun is empty right up until the moment you pull the trigger and get a BANG! instead of a click. The other kind is when something gets in the trigger guard, or some other coordination problem where something unintended manages to hit the trigger. This could also include carrying "Mexican" or in a holster that doesn't provide adequate protection for the trigger.
 
#57 ·
Todd,
I forgot to mention another type of ND.

A 13 year old boy with a .22 thought it would be cool to climb a tree and pretend to be a "Jap Sniper" after watching a 1960's era war movie. A branch got caught in the trigger guard and discharged the 22. Nobody was injured, but the 13 year old boy realized that Jap Snipers got shot out of trees quite often, so he climbed down. Happened about 33 years ago.

So, add "climbing a tree while pretending to be a Jap Sniper with a loaded weapon" to the list.

None of this is first hand knowledge though. Let's just say I heard about it...
 
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