Defensive Carry banner

Negligent Discharges--how do they happen?

6K views 62 replies 51 participants last post by  ANGLICO 
#1 ·
I'm curious as to how these negligent discharges actually happen. The descriptions are always so vague ("it just went off"). Is it a forgotten round in the chamber? Do some guns fire when dropped, or the hammer is caught by a wandering thumb or piece of clothing? If it's happened to you or someone that's told you "the real story", please fill us in on how this happens so that we all can learn from these experiences and not let it happen to us.
 
#4 ·
You have to dismiss about at least 90% of the causes you read in the news. Most people are just trying to cover their hind end. Modern well-maintained firearms almost never just "go off". If they did you would be hearing about massive recalls from the manufacturer. It is possible for a firearm to malfunction, but that is a very small portion of the nd's.
 
#5 ·
I'm curious as to how these negligent discharges actually happen.
Varies by which negligence is the cause, of course. And humans are inventive and creative in that regard, if nothing else.

I'm sure many of these stories are skewed simply because the one in the know hides the actual truth of it. "Just went off" can be a nice way to smooth things over, if not overly effective at doing so.

Some drop it. Some fiddle with it to point of failure. Some blow the reholster. Some fail to execute the four gun safety guidelines religiously. Some have a "finger" problem while doing things other than actually firing for cause. Some attempt to clean the gun without first engaging the brain. Some clear the gun with something less than the full steps required to clear, or fail to double-check that the steps worked.

Myself, I've come close a couple times, in which I didn't first drop the magazine prior to racking the slide to eject the chambered round. This has occurred at the range, when my mind was more on the firing drill and lessons learned than anything else. But I retained muzzle control, went through the steps again, ended by visually confirming and sticking my finger into the chamber. Safe handling, layered procedures, double-checking ... it all helps. But, as was clear in these instances, so does repeated performance, again and again, until it's truly second nature. I'd been shooting less lately, and got a bit complacent. Didn't fire, but was able to catch myself in each of those couple instances prior to disaster. I'm sure many situations we never hear of go roughly this way, in which something got close but didn't go so far as firing.

Over the years, I've had two or three holsters that were something less than perfectly reinforced around the mouth, such that reholstering was a bit of a pain. Since I prefer semi-auto SA/DA or DAO pistols without a manual thumb safety, it can get a bit concerning when the gun doesn't easily reholster the first or second shot at it, given the risks of hanging up on a finger, clothing or the sweat shield of the holster. (Those less than well designed holsters are no more, though. Far safer to have a well-designed unit, in this regard.)


Modern well-maintained firearms almost never just "go off". If they did you would be hearing about massive recalls from the manufacturer. It is possible for a firearm to malfunction, but that is a very small portion of the nd's.
On my Rem 700, I'd had a Jewell HVR trigger installed professionally, but then adjusted the pull-weight down a bit low. On one occasion, bumping the butt of the rifle a bit hard caused the cartridge to fire. Negligence on my part for dialing it down that low, and I suppose even negligent for not waiting to chamber the next round until I was positioned down over the gun, on-target and ready to fire. Never happened again, once I new where the cutoff spot was. Bummer to have found it, but there isn't really another good way to find it. Knowing it, I was able to add just under a half-pound of pull back into the adjustment and avoid the situation again. A nice lesson.
 
#8 ·
On my Rem 700, I'd had a Jewell HVR trigger installed professionally, but then adjusted the pull-weight down a bit low. On one occasion, bumping the butt of the rifle a bit hard caused the cartridge to fire. Negligence on my part for dialing it down that low, and I suppose even negligent for not waiting to chamber the next round until I was positioned on-target and ready to fire. Never happened again, once I new where the cutoff spot was. Bummer to have found it, but there isn't really another good way to find it. Knowing it, I was able to add just under a half-pound of pull back into the adjustment and avoid the situation again. A nice lesson.
That was why I said "almost never". Most of the news stories seem to place blame on the weapon. One of the great things about this forum is when people share their stories so that others can learn from them.
 
#7 ·
I read a news story about a police officer who pulled her dry cleaning out of the trunk of her car and her service pistol just went off. Turns out her Sig was loose in the trunk and loaded. A clothes hanger caught in the trigger wand fired the gun when she pulled out her clothes. Lesson- always keep a gun in a proper storage system. A hard case or a holster protects the trigger. A loose in a purse or a pocket won't cut it.

I've seen many photos of pistol wounds down the side of the leg and into the calf or foot. Be careful when holstering a pistol. Keep the trigger clear of fingers, clothes, or stray holster parts (thumb snaps, soft corners...). Also, keep the trigger clear when drawing. Finger indexed on the frame until the muzzle is turned down range.

These are simply detailed accounts of people violating the basic safety rules of firearm safety. The rules are pretty simple, but daily life make a us complacent. This is one more reason drill sergeants always stress, "attention to detail".
 
#11 ·
Finger on the trigger or something catches the trigger. What I have seen and read about are:

1) the person intentionally pulls the trigger when he thinks the gun is not loaded (and failed to check if it was loaded before he pulled the trigger);
2) the person stumbles while holding the gun and his finger was within the trigger guard;
3) the person drops the gun and then tries to grab it instead of letting it drop;
4) the person makes a mistake unholstering/reholstering;
5) something other than a finger pulls the trigger (kind of rare, but it happens - a soft leather holster collapses in the trigger area; the poster above describing the trunk incident).

The majority fall under #1, and 2 - 5 are the long tail.

Don't think it won't happen to you!
 
#12 ·
I've had one in my life time, and I honestly don't know what step I missed. It was such a routine procedure to drop the mag, rack the slide to unload the gun, pull the trigger to release the slide, pull the takedown lever, dismantle, and clean. I had done it 100 times before, and I always point the gun away from anyone when pulling the trigger. For whatever reason, this time, there was still a round in the chamber. I don't know if I racked the slide first and then dropped the mag, or just never racked the slide to unload the chamber. I missed one of those steps. Put a round through my living room wall, through the bedroom and into the other wall. Luckily no one was hurt, just minor wall damage, and scared the **** out of me. Lesson learned, and no one injured.

Don't get too routine with clearing a weapon, when something is repetitive, and routine, you devote less brain power and can make a mistake and not even notice.
 
#16 ·
In most cases, sure. Not in all. (See my post above, re Rem 700 trigger pull-weight, a situation in which no pressure was applied to the trigger by an object/finger.)
 
#17 ·
I have witnessed 2 ND's

Once while testing the trigger on a revolver it went click, click, click, BLAM I had left onE round in it. Easy to check, but I missed it. Luckily I was at the range and it was pointed down range.


Second I was in the squad room and some one was showing off their new back up gun a Sig P232, he popped out the mag and talked about how sweet the trigger was then shot a hole in the wall. He forgot that he had chambered a round and failed to check the chamber. This resulted in a lot of paper work and remedial training for all of us
 
#19 ·
These accidents can occur in so many ways, but the underriding principle in almost all instances is that basic safety rules as it relates to gun carry and handling were not followed. It's that simple. The gun does not discharge by itself.
 
#21 ·
what causes a negligent discharge?..... complacency, ignorance, lack of training, stupidity, preoccupation, multi tasking, showing off, assuming a gun is loaded, poor weapon handling practices, ..... the common thread is always the same...negligence. A true accidental discharge can really be caused by one thing only IMO.... a catastrophic mechanical failure of a weapon system. everything else can be prevented by the end user.
 
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#23 ·
I have seen four ND's. Two involved different people, both very gun savy, clearing a 94 Winchester before entering the hunting vehicle. Both swore their finger was no where near the trigger when working the lever to jack the rounds out, but rifle went off. Other two were both in the TOC, different people. Protocol was to clear the 1911 upon entering the TOC. Carried in Condition 1. Eject mag, rack to clear round, point in safe direction and pull trigger. Twice observed individuals do protocol correctly except not rack slide fully to clear the chambered round and boom. Like any other often repeated routine, muscle memory overrides diligence.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Here's an interesting one. The guy has a brand new Beretta 92FS with which he intends to enter a competition and is demonstrating a draw with it. He must be accustomed to Striker fired hand guns, perhaps Glocks because in the video he racks the slide and jacks a round into the chamber. He then holsters the Beretta without decocking it. He now has a loaded Beretta, in the holster, cocked in Condition zero. He then draws and manages to shoot himself. I think the video was meant to make a point about the holster he was using but it just really demonstrates carelessness.

There is language in the video that some may find offensive. Be advised.

LiveLeak.com - Fail: Negligent Discharge with Active Retention Holster
 
#25 ·
Thanks for all the replies so far. I asked because I'd read about a few of these, and didn't want to go through any myself! I've had revolvers for years, but recently got a 9mm semi-auto, so I wanted to check to see if these were possibly evil beasts with minds of their own (as they are sometimes portrayed). It looks like the most important thing is make sure the chamber is cleared if I believe the weapon is empty.
 
#26 ·
The majority of the ones that make the news, I believe are people dinking with things when they shouldn't, resulting in a finger in the trigger guard of a loaded weapon when they won't intend to shoot...sometimes required for some idiotic reason (e.g. the discharge by an airline pilot a while back where he was required to remove the firearm during landing with some poorly designed holster), sometimes when they expect it to be empty, or simply when fooling around with it, touching one off, and going with the standby 'it just went off' (something I've only ever seen with a defective paintball marker). One very controversial version of this are certain holster designs which allow pressure with a trigger finger to release from the holster and, when performed quickly, can result in the trigger finger continuing on into the trigger guard before it really should be...this is not how the design is intended to be used, but the fact that it allows it has resulted in this type of holster being banned at many instruction schools.

Then there are the interference with the trigger...whether from a poorly designed holster (e.g. the gentleman whose older, softened leather holster flexed inside the trigger guard during reholstering resulting in a buttocks self-inflicted wound), the famous jacket strings getting caught during reholstering, or idiots carrying light trigger pull pistols in their sweatpants without a holster which opens who knows how many ways for things to interact with the trigger.

Then there's pure idiocy, like the one I've witnessed, where a cheap pistol jammed up and the gentleman proceeded to point it toward the ground and beat it to try to unjam it (likely with his finger on the trigger at the time) resulting in a hole in the ground directly between his feet, and likely the need for a trip to the outhouse to clean up a bit.

Personally, I'm paranoid. I have a number of firearms around, but only the one directly on me is ever loaded...at the same time, when I'm working with, dry firing, sighting, etc. any of the others, I tend to check them. Then be paranoid and check them again. And sometimes again. This is a habit I'm not trying to break!
 
#27 ·
From what I've seen, a couple reasons.

1:Ignoring basic gun safety rules (mainly the "Finger off the trigger until you are absolutely ready to fire" one)
2:Failure to maintain equipment (I have seen a striker fired gun have a striker spring break while loaded. If you saw how often this dude racked the slide, it might make more sense.)
3:Failure to understand your equipment (I have seen a guy fire a round while field stripping. What happened was he racked the slide, then dropped the mag, or, backwards. I have also seen a guy fire a round from a 1911 because his finger slipped off the hammer when putting it down.)
4:Failure to train properly (Not knowing where the trigger breaks, please see reason 1)
5:Keeping your finger and other stuff out from inside the trigger guard. (Duh.... reholstering with clothes in the way? Bad idea....)
6:Using a holster without a trigger guard, or using no holster at all. (Cover the trigger)
 
#28 ·
Only one I ever saw that was what I call a "negligent discharge" (the gun goes off when a FINGER doesn't pull the trigger) was a guy with a really old JIT slide holster. The leather had worn out and was so soft the area around the trigger got inside the trigger guard and when he sat down in his car (had a glock) the trigger was pressed by the leather and BOOM! Had he replaced his worn out holster, it would never have happened.

Short of that I have read and heard of people torching off a round by pressing the trigger and not realizing it was loaded. To me that is an "Idiot Discharge"
 
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#34 ·
I had a combat cut CBST that was too pointy, it could have poked into the trigger guard and was probably stiff enough to push the trigger. I could see it trying to get in the trigger guard when I was experimenting with the new holster (with an unloaded Glock). I trimmed it to a longer radius that wouldn't fit in the trigger guard to prevent exactly that from happening.

This is a really good thread.

Fitch
 
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