Is it really suggested to stay "within the family"?
This is a discussion on Is it really suggested to stay "within the family"? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I department just switched from old S&W 4013's to Sig P229 DAK .40's. Prior to being hired as LEO, I had NO, ZIP, ZERO experience ...
November 16th, 2006 05:18 PM
Is it really suggested to stay "within the family"?
I department just switched from old S&W 4013's to Sig P229 DAK .40's. Prior to being hired as LEO, I had NO, ZIP, ZERO experience shooting handguns. Now I have experience shooting 2 :) I know I have a long way to go to catch up with some of the people here!
My question is this: I had always figured that I would buy a glock 27 as a BUG + off-duty carry. It was suggested to me that you should keep your on-duty & off-duty carry in the same family. I was told in high stress situations (like when I actually pull my weapon), it's better to have similar guns. I like the SIG 229, and was looking at the p239 DAK .40. I went to my local gun shop and had a glock 27(w/ finger extension) and a P239 side by side. The glock is noticably smaller, and seemed like it would be easier to conceal. I am at an impass right now. I can't seem to decide which one I want(i know, i know, some of you area thinking "well the answer is easy, get both!")
If anyone has links to comparisons between the guns, or articles on carrying same family guns I would appreciate it.
November 16th, 2006 05:18 PM
November 16th, 2006 05:36 PM
I think if your primary was a Glock and you wanted a Sig BUG, you would have training issues. Since its the other way around, I don't think its to big of a deal. Both are double action, squeeze and shoot type of firearms.
November 16th, 2006 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by SIXTO
That's exactly what I was thinking. If there was one thing I learned from Jerry Springer, it's that you don't always have to keep things "in the family." Just as long as the operations are the same Sig's DAK and Glock's Safe Action. I can tell you however, you "may" have issues involving the grip angle. The Sig has a more traditional 1911-stlye grip angle, while the glock has a very "forward" style, almost like a luger. If you establish a natural point of aim on a Sig, you may notice when you bring the glock up to your eye, the front sight will sit high. I know many people that alternate between the two platforms and have no problem with either. I can tell you from my experiance, I had a two week learning curve to re-establish muscle memory to acquire the front sight on my 1911 compact (my current CCW) from my old CCW, a glock. Try it out and see what works for you.
Good luck and stay safe.
November 16th, 2006 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by razorblade
I tend to shoot low with my SIG. Does this mean I will tend to shoot even lower with the glock?
November 16th, 2006 07:07 PM
Welcome to the forum.
Another member asked about having 2 CCWs and I answered on that thread what I will say here:
I really like the idea of carrying guns with the same manual-of-arms myself...back when I could carry any gun while off-duty, I took advantage and simultaneously carried a Kahr P9 Covert 9mm behind the hip and a Kahr PM9 9mm in a weak-hand pocket holster with two seven-round magazines. Two guns, one manual-of-arms, with magazines that fit both guns.
That said, the P239 is not that much smaller than a P229, but the Glock 27 is as you noted. Besides the different "feel" of the SIG and Glock, the major difference is the positioning of the slide release and the trigger pull. You will probably notice a difference in your shooting due to the different trigger pull with the Glock's pull being shorter and lighter over the SIG. I think the difference becomes negligible if you have a Glock armorer or gunsmith install a NY trigger.
USAF: Loving Our Obscene Amenities Since 1947
November 16th, 2006 07:08 PM
I have learned that the main issue is matching up the "manual of arms"--DAO, DA/SA, etc. Essentially having the same operation, even thought they may be different brands.
Personally, I like products like the Glock, SIG's DAK trigger, and others that are simple to operate--draw, front sight, press and boom.
"It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith
November 16th, 2006 07:09 PM
Glock's grip angle is on the obtuse side, which will tend to put your shots higher than with the Sig (unless you overcompensate).
Originally Posted by Spider717
This is assuming the Sig has a more acute (closer to 1911-ish) angle, but I don't know for sure that it does. Others should be able to answer that.
November 16th, 2006 08:43 PM
I'd get the Sig P239 in .40 with DAK trigger
I agree with the premise that you are less likely to make a mistake if both your duty and backup guns are Sigs in the same caliber with the same type of trigger. While the Glock 27 is indeed smaller than the Sig P239, I'd go with the P239 because it is so similar in controls and feel to the P229 duty gun.
The P239 is not hard to conceal, in my opinion. It has a short barrel, a slim slide and a fairly compact grip area with single stack magazine. As CCW guns go, it is pretty trim and not nearly as large as some people's CCW guns. If you pick the right holster and cover garment I think you will easily conceal it.
November 16th, 2006 08:48 PM
Spider , first welcome to the forum .
On the subject of off duty and bugs , allow me to suggest you speak with your fto and range officers , your dept may have some requirements that you need to meet when it comes to what you may carry under the color of your employment .
Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
We only begin to understand folks after we stop and think .
Criminals are looking for victims, not opponents.
November 16th, 2006 08:57 PM
Spider - hello and -
I like srfl posted on this matter of common manual of arms in the ''two guns'' thread -
http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin...ad.php?t=16796 and do believe firmly that staying right in the family is the most desirable, but ''cousins'' might do!!! Beyond that - not so good IMO.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
November 16th, 2006 09:13 PM
proficiency is the issue.
November 17th, 2006 12:10 AM
I agree. You will either naturally point high or low with 1 or both guns . the grip angle on Glocks is that diffrent than Sigs and other pistols. Also a DAK trigger is a long pull, while the Glock is a short pull.
Originally Posted by gunmetal
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
November 17th, 2006 01:06 AM
For me, I've conditioned myself not to use the slide stop to release the slide from slidelock. So for me, the position of the slidestop would be a moot point (but we were never talking about me anyways, were we?). Slingshot it into battery, cause in a shootout you'll probably loose dextarity. Something to consider.
Spider, your shots are low with the Sig? It sounds more like you might be "dipping" the muzzle of the gun downwards in anticipation of the recoil. The next time you are at the range (where it is convienent for you to do so) slowwwwwlly pull the trigger and watch what your front sight does. Don't really focus on hitting the target, just watch if your front sight begins to dip down as you are reaching the end of the trigger pull. That may be your problem.
When (cuz' I know you will) overcome this "dipping", it doesnt matter if you fire a Sig, Glock, 1911, Hi Point or whatever, when you acquire that front sight and press the trigger straight to the rear you'll hit dead center.
If I am telling you something you are already aware of, I appologize. If you decide to go with the Sig platform for both duty and off-duty carry, you'll begin to deveop muscle memory as you practice. Your hand will find the grip of the gun the same way each time. Infact you'll know when you gripped it WRONG just because it doesn't "feel right." As you begin to present the gun, your weak hand will meet the grip, and as you push the gun out, you'll notice the front sight will naturally float into the rear notch. When you complete your draw, your front sight will sit perfectly inside the notch. Muscle memory will do that. Infact, you know your muscle memory has been set if you can shut your eyes, draw your gun from the holster, and present it to the full draw. Open your eyes and look where the sights are, if they are in the notch, you've done it. Don't worry if you don't get it the first month. It took me 3 months with my Glock.
If you switch platforms and use a Glock, you will notice your muscle memory will continue to do what it programmed, and that will be to grip the gun, bring it up, and present it. The problem is the grip is at a different angle. Therefore, your natural point of aim will make the front sight sit high. If you do this with your eyes open, your mind will tell your muscles to "adjust" as it's drawing. However, if you decided to fire immidiatly after the full draw (something common in your profession), your shots will be high. It can be done, I know a Capital Police officer that carrys a Glock 22 for duty and a Sig for off duty. However, he's trained himself with both platforms extensively.
November 17th, 2006 07:35 AM
If you train with both often, and practice transitioning from you primary to your backup, it should be a problem.
I can go from a 1911 to a glock, then back to a 1911 without thinking twice. The key is to get plenty of rangetime with both.
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