SO, i took the snubbie out to the range today and....
This is a discussion on SO, i took the snubbie out to the range today and.... within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; well guys I need some valuable input. I will tell you how my day went today. I generally talk too much but I will TRY ...
September 1st, 2013 02:20 AM
SO, i took the snubbie out to the range today and....
well guys I need some valuable input. I will tell you how my day went today. I generally talk too much but I will TRY to keep this straight to the point.
so, I get my stuff, box of ammo and all that and head to the range with my G19 and SW wyatt deep cover 38. I went to the LGS first and planned to drop of my glock to new sights put on, so I initially planned on going to the range with only the snub 38, however the guy took only 5 minutes to press my sights on, so I ended up taking the two guns.
some background. I love the SW 367 with the bobbed hammer and clip grip. it is light, super concealable and extremely reliable. I chose a snub nose because it will get the job done, no really malfunctions to worry about. no magazine springs and etc. I carry it all the time and remember that concept, it is better just to have it with you. I don't dress around my gun.
G19 is king of my heavy clothing and winter carry, besides I am kind of waiting on a holster for it. I love it.
range report (for me). the glock: smooth, I was accurate with it, even for a novice and newbie. the bullet was pretty much going where I wanted, feels great in my hand. etc etc
S&W snub: kicked a little even on NON +p 38( very understandable because it is light). my hand was hurting pretty bad on the last 10 of 50 rounds. I was already expecting and knowing that it was gonna kick more and be harder to shoot accurately but OUCH. That is the reason I am here. it was BAD. I could only put bullets KINDA where I wanted at 15ish yards. so I got concerned.
so I need input. but I gotta put on some ground rules: I know a lot of you out there will say PRACTICE, PRACTICE and practice but I don't want to spend hundreds or maybe 1000's of dollars in ammo and training to get "that" level of accuracy. sorry, I just don't to hear THAT answer. I want to stick with revolvers if at all possible and not really anything smaller than 38.
my thoughts: laser grip??? maybe. but then I would have to carry with a holster always and with the clip grip I don't have to. buy a Bodyguard 38 and slap a clip grip on it??? I am pretty sure they don't make clips with lasers. I don't want to use the laser as a crutch. but I want to be kinda on the middle. if I have time to activate it, great. if I don't, I will be proficient enough at short distances.
what ya think?
September 1st, 2013 02:27 AM
Dry-firing is your friend. Lots of it. Regularly.
Snap-caps optional. I don't use 'em.
Realistically, I don't dry-fire the Model 642 kept around here much any more. I don't like the revolver. Don't think it's such a great idea for most folks to purchase for concealed carry. I can shoot it fine to 15 yard which is far enough for my purposes. I find myself carrying and practicing with heavier steel-framed snubs.
My wife likes it however.
Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"
“No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”
Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893
September 1st, 2013 02:50 AM
+1 on the dry fire practice. I dry fire my 638 quite a bit. It takes a while to get used to the heavy DA pull on an airweight. Realize also that it was not designed to be a long-distance defensive weapon. Snubs are for up close work. I put my mind to learning to shoot the thing, and after some time I became much more proficient with it (dry fire mostly). Keep at it; snubbies are great tools when used within the arena for which they are designed to operate.
I will rarely post, but will read (and hopefully learn) a lot
September 1st, 2013 02:57 AM
do you know if the desantis clip grip will fit on the BG 38??
September 1st, 2013 03:12 AM
I think the laser is worth a shot, possibly for aiming but more for helping with dry-fire practice. Presuming that your issue is imprecision - meaning that you're getting large groups, as opposed to small groups a little off your point of aim - your problem is likely jerking the trigger, shaking, something along those lines. With a laser activated while you dry-fire, pointed at a wall from a decent distance, the dot will show you how much you're moving the gun when you fire.
For this purpose, even a cheap laser pointer tied to the muzzle will work. Just remember to take it off when you're done - it'd be embarrassing if someone thought you meant to use it as a sight.
...there is no arguing with such snivelling puppies, who allow superiors to kick them about deck at pleasure.
— Captain Bellamy
September 1st, 2013 03:34 AM
I was thinking about a bodyguard 38 with the de santis clip grip
September 1st, 2013 05:08 AM
Practice at closer ranges,7 yards is a more realistic self defense range than 15,and it will help build your confidence in the gun.
September 1st, 2013 06:25 AM
A set of Pachmayr Decelerator or Compac grips will tame the recoil noticeably. Lyman Products - Brands that Perform The rubber over-mold Crimson Trace laser grips will also help but the laser itself will not compensate for trigger jerks or flinches. However, it will expose them. I would try the Pachmayrs, dry firing at home, plus ball and dummy exercises on the range. Remember a smooth roll on the trigger with revolvers.
September 1st, 2013 07:17 AM
...second on the Pachmayrs...I put the Compacs on any revolver they're made for...make range time fun and carry well...fit my paw like a glove...
...I would spend money on a heavier revolver...light for carry bites us in the butt on range day AND in a situation where we have to shoot...it takes time to get back on target...a stainless J is not too heavy to carry...
...personally don't like lasers and clip grips...I like to keep things simple and reliable...but a lot of folks love both items...
...would you borrow a stainless or all-steel J and shoot it? preferably one with some good rubber grips on it? then you'll know the difference...
...when shooting that lightweight, look away, load three, and spin the cylinder...you'll see the flinching, and that's a great deal of the problem with accuracy...if I expected to have my fist smacked with a 2x4 everytime I pulled the trigger...I wouldn't shoot well either...
Last edited by Snub44; September 1st, 2013 at 08:48 AM.
September 1st, 2013 07:38 AM
I'm basically going to suggest what others have already:
Crimson Trace Lasergrips, snap caps, and a lot of dry firing.
Even if you don't value them in terms of a tactical aid, the LG-405 model WILL address and help 2 of your problems you mentioned:
1. The OUCH part
Read the quote below, the 405's air pocket really helps with recoil.
2. The accuracy part
Learning to stage a DAO trigger is the key to improving groups with a snubbie. The CT is a tremendous training aid when practicing while dry firing. (Snap caps are up to you; I prefer to use them if I'm going to dry fire more than a few times)
From the CT website,
The LG-405 laser sight is the latest design in Lasergrips® for the wildly popular Smith & Wesson J-Frame revolver line. Featuring a front activated laser that is engaged instinctively when the revolver is held in a natural shooting grip, the LG-405 laser sight is manufactured with a rubber overmold material over a polymer base. In addition to the enhanced sighting provided by Crimson Trace® Lasergrips, the LG-405 also features an innovative air pocket on top of the backstrap that effectively reduces felt recoil up to 30%. The LG-405 on a J-Frame is ideal for deep concealment.
Here's a thread with some great revolver tips:
NICE revolver, by the way; congrats elphius.
September 1st, 2013 08:12 AM
More weight, shorter range
I have a variety of snubbies in different sizes, including an airweight J frame like you - mine is the S&W 642. I figure the 642 is strictly for close range point shooting - maybe inside 5 to 10 feet without using the sights. I never practice with it at 15 yards, and I figure I couldn't hit much at that range anyway. If the threat is at 15 yards, I figure I am running away or looking for cover when all I have is the 642. But I still like the gun because it is so small and concealable, and makes a great backup to something larger.
When I want a snubby that is large and heavy enough to hit something at a fair range, I go with an all steel gun like a Colt Detective Special (21 ounces), a S&W 19 or 66 (32 ounces) or a S&W 686 (34 ounces). The heavier guns mentioned have excellent sights, smooth DA triggers, and are quite accurate to shoot at 15 yards. They also don't recoil excessively, even with magnum ammunition.
Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the Peoples' Liberty's Teeth." - George Washington
September 1st, 2013 08:34 AM
367 Airweight, yes?
Originally Posted by elphius
During extended range sessions, an oversized, overpadded grip. IMO, it's about the only thing that's going to have an immediate impact on erasing some of the pain during such sessions. And it ought to aid with accuracy as well.
Of course, during carrying you aren't going to be carrying it with the behemoth grip, so you'll need to strengthen and toughen up your hands to a degree that inures you to such ~20-30rd pains and accuracy impacts.
If you're spot-on, accuracy-wise, with the little Airweight gun, during most 5-10rd sessions, then you might well want to stick with it. But this sort of thing is one of the reasons many of us swear by mid-weight and mid-length revolver alternatives to the Airweight class of snubbies. Consider something in the ~22-25oz range, perhaps something with a 3" bbl. A Ruger SP-101 is a good place to start, or perhaps one of S&W's heavier J-frames in 3" sizing (ie, Model 60 3"). It'll make a good bit of difference, the added weight.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
September 1st, 2013 08:35 AM
Some thoughts on this:
1. A lightweight snubbie will not be comfortable for running 50 rounds. Consider practicing with a full-size revolver and transfer your skills with a lower round count.
2. Master the "well-pull" technique. When pulling a bucketful of water from a well, you don't pull, stop, pull. Instead, you try to keep the momentum smooth and steady hand over hand. That's the feel of drawing back a double-action trigger.
3. Find the right part of your index finger for the trigger pull. Mark it with a pen. Put masking tape on either side of that line. Practice drawing and putting that exact line on the trigger.
Getting the right finger position on the trigger, pulling smooth and steady through the hammer drop, and being consistent will bring your accuracy together. Figure no more than 20 rounds in a practice session. Work with a different revolver if you want more practice. Once your hand is beat up from successive rounds, you'll likely start to anticipate the recoil, start flinching, and that will degrade the rest of your practice.
Yes, people here will tell you that they routinely fire 1,000 rounds of .357 in a scandium Airweight, but that's unusual. In your use-case, you're going to draw the snubbie and fire 1 to 3 rounds at arm's-length distance. You can train for accuracy out to 25, 50, or 100 feet, but that's more of an exercise in confidence building. This tool is made for a different job.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
September 1st, 2013 08:37 AM
All the suggestions so far are good however for me I have found that what helps to get confidence in light weight short barreled snub nose revolvers is a good set of recoil reducing grips.
If I want maximum concealment with my Remora holster and pocket carry I use standard velocity rounds in my Model 60 and the Eagle Secret Service grips work well.
click image to enlarge....
If I am carrying AIWB in a High Noon Public Secret holster then I am carrying +p ammo and my Model 60 wears Siles grips.
click image to enlarge.....
My wife's 649 always wears Pachmayr grips because even with standard velocity ammo she needs them for recoil control.
click image to enlarge....
The Ruger SP-101 always wears Pachmayrs because it always carries .357 Gold Dots.
click image to enlarge...
Though rubber grips are a bit more bulky then a standard grip with a grip clip (I tried a grip clip but I did not like the feel on my hand) they add accuracy and control and for me that's what I want in my defensive handguns.
Good Luck ,
II Timothy 1:7 God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind.
"Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer". T. Larkin
September 1st, 2013 08:43 AM
There's not really any other way but to practice. Besides dry firing at home, try one full cylinder or dry firing before every cylinder of live ammo. And watch to see if your front sight jumps around. Control your trigger pull so it's a smooth squeeze instead of a jerk. When you front sight stays static all through the dry fire, you just figured out how to cure your flinch. Give it a try.
Also limit your sessions to 50-100 round per. If a gun is tough to handle it can cause fatigue. And training while fatigued can induce more bad habits than good ones.
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