Defensive Carry banner

10mm: too much gun for SD?

12K views 89 replies 58 participants last post by  Madcap_Magician 
#1 ·
Like any good gun enthusiasts, I've started to ask "what if?" questions again. I'm happily toting my Glocks 26 and 30S, with my 642 as filler/backup but I'm starting to debate with myself once again. This time the question is: what if I switched to 10mm exclusively?

I've owned a Glock 20 before but found it to be too much gun at the time and ended up selling it off. It was a reliable if snappy gun. If I wasn't paying enough attention it would try to jump out of my hands. But I hadn't mastered many fundamentals in grip and stance then; I'm confident I'll do better now.

Assuming one could muscle a 10mm pistol under proper control like most able bodied persons should be able to, guns like the Glock 20 and 29 seem like the perfect SD firearm. Lots of capacity. Great terminal performance. Makes impressive sized holes. Has enough penetration and power to topple grizzly bears; it is literally a hunting cartridge.

And assuming one knows how to reload, practice rounds can be had cheaply. Or the barrel could be swapped out for the .40 S&W that generally has lots of supply available at LGS'.

So what's not to love? Well a conversation with a guy behind one of my trusted LGS' got me thinking: is shooting someone with literally a hunting caliber (almost guaranteed to saw a man in half) too much for self defense? Is the 10mm round too powerful and overkill for civilian self defense applications? Would it lead to more court appearances per case than the "standard" police calibers like 9mm, .45 or .40?

Thoughts on this are welcome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Thoughts:

A 'bad' prosecutor will, if they can and see some gain in it, take any gun no matter what the caliber and turn it against you.

In most places, if it is a legally justifiable shooting, it won't matter what the attacker has been shot with. Likewise, if the investigators find something suspicious about the circumstances of the shooting, it won't be anything more than another tick on their scale of suspicion that you used a 10mm and not something else, and probably won't matter at all.

Most juries, unless the prosecutor makes a point of it, won't know the power difference between 10mm and something else unless it's something incredibly obvious, like a .22 or a .25.

A good lawyer will be able to defend your choice of caliber if it goes as far as a trial.

Recall that the FBI wanted to go to 10mm. They did not discard it because it was going to be bad PR using something that powerful. They discarded it for other reasons.

Consider the mission of the gun and caliber. Do you believe you have reason to need the extra oomph? That goes into articulation and justification in the event of an inquiry.
 
#3 ·
Well dont forget the gov was the one who made the round pretty much after the shootout in Miami in 86 when there 9mm and 38s were outgunned by a mini 14 . So if they used it it should be ok ..

Plus a 40 cal is just low powder 10mm round and unless your shooting underwood most 10 mm is the same as 40 cal
 
#4 ·
Well if it was designed to hunt grizzly bears and will saw a man in half, then yes it is to much for self defense.

But it wasn't and it won't. So no it is not too much for self defense. Some loadings for might not be the best choice for self defense.
 
#7 ·
Like any good gun enthusiasts, I've started to ask "what if?" questions again. I'm happily toting my Glocks 26 and 30S, with my 642 as filler/backup but I'm starting to debate with myself once again. This time the question is: what if I switched to 10mm exclusively?

I've owned a Glock 20 before but found it to be too much gun at the time and ended up selling it off. It was a reliable if snappy gun. If I wasn't paying enough attention it would try to jump out of my hands. But I hadn't mastered many fundamentals in grip and stance then; I'm confident I'll do better now.

Assuming one could muscle a 10mm pistol under proper control like most able bodied persons should be able to, guns like the Glock 20 and 29 seem like the perfect SD firearm. Lots of capacity. Great terminal performance. Makes impressive sized holes. Has enough penetration and power to topple grizzly bears; it is literally a hunting cartridge.

And assuming one knows how to reload, practice rounds can be had cheaply. Or the barrel could be swapped out for the .40 S&W that generally has lots of supply available at LGS'.

So what's not to love? Well a conversation with a guy behind one of my trusted LGS' got me thinking: is shooting someone with literally a hunting caliber (almost guaranteed to saw a man in half) too much for self defense? Is the 10mm round too powerful and overkill for civilian self defense applications? Would it lead to more court appearances per case than the "standard" police calibers like 9mm, .45 or .40?

Thoughts on this are welcome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I had to laugh at the part in bold.

Why not just take the leap of faith and go with the S&W 500...Skip the little rounds......:image035:
 
#9 ·
10mm ends pretty much where 41 magnum starts in regards to bullet weight and power. I think both are an outstanding SD choice. If you use decent hollow point ammunition, pretty much all of the energy of the round will be transferred to the initial point of impact, so "over-penetration" isn't really a huge concern. If you're worried about soemone directly behind your target, it doesn't matter what you're shooting, you should find a better angle of attack.
 
#10 ·
Ok stop being a wimp and start carrying a 7.52x54r pistol if you want to be a real mannly man and not only blow a large hole in the bad guy but set them on fire too.... :image035:

Sry there are mosin nagent handguns and yes they hurt a lot to fire ...
 
  • Like
Reactions: DrDP6 and brocktice
#12 ·
If the 10mm is too much gun for self-defense, then the .357 magnum is too much gun for self-defense. Their ballistics overlap by about 95% with a very slight edge on the top end to the .357 magnum. To me, the recoil of the 10mm is about like shooting a .45 ACP +P and less than a .357 magnum revolver with hot loads.
 
#56 ·
^^^^^^Malarkey^^^^

No, it is not.
For the relatively accurate reason posted below.
 
  • Like
Reactions: flintlock62
#14 ·
For me personally,having to much self defense is the absolute last thing i'm concerned with.If someone tries to hurt me,i will use whatever i can to stop it.I use the 230 gr win pdx1.I didn't buy them to scare someone.That said,if they leave me alone,they have nothing to worry about.If my gun could shoot a 300 gr i would use it.

Someone is trying to hurt me and i'm going to be concerned about having to much?Each to their own,but not me.
 
#76 ·
No such thing as "too much" when it comes to SD for you or your family.
I don't get into the "overkill" debate as there is no such thing when trying to immediately stop an opponent.
This ^ :35:
We have seen reports of attackers taking numerous rounds of 9mm or 45 acp but not being quickly incapacitated.
No one is going to wish for a less powerful weapon (or less ammo) when someone is attempting to kill them.

I did not yet see it mentioned, but Kentucky State Police issued the 10mm to troopers for several years.
I do not believe the FBI or KSP stopped using the 10mm because its terminal performance against criminals was deemed excessive.
Federal & state agencies include "small stature" individuals and members that are not "into" guns, not practicing beyond what is required; give those individuals a cartridge producing a PF (power factor) of over 200 and recoil will be a problem.
In the 1990's I had a Colt Delta Elite "enhanced" and I thought the recoil produced by Winchester 175 Silvertips was excessive and I was "into" guns.
The reason those agencies stopped using the 10mm was not likely because it produced "excessive incapacitation" :silly: against their attackers.

In my first reply to this thread I mentioned 2nd shot follow up, I'll provide some data to support that, using my chrono and pistols:
Glock 30: Winchester Ranger T 230 @ 874 fps / PF 201 / 390# KE
Glock 30: Federal Hydra-Shok 230 @ 807 fps / PF 186 / 333# KE
I can notice the difference in recoil between those two 45 acp loads, especially with flush magazines that leave my pinky hanging.
Glock 29: Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,278 fps / PF 198 / 562# KE
Glock 29: Corbon 150 JHP @ 1,222 fps / PF 183 / 497# KE

Just as I think the recoil is a little too much with Ranger T in the Glock 30, I also think the Hornady 155 gr. in the model 29 a hindrance to 2nd shot follow up time. I prefer Hydra-Shok in the model 30 and Corbon 150 in the 29 as those loads are easier to control.
Last time I conducted my "both 1st & 2nd shot must hit a 6 inch circle at 6 - 7 yards" drill the model 29 averaged about .34 second for 2nd shot follow up (based on my criteria in quotes) loaded with Hornady 155 XTP; I had to really focus to obtain that result, more so than with other "softer kicking" calibers and that is still slower than with my Glock model 23 (.24 sec) or model 32 (.25 sec).
I have not conducted my 2nd shot drill lately, but I'm confident that with the Corbon 150 JHP in the model 29 my 2nd shot time would be very comparable to the Glock 30 loaded with "softer kicking" 230 Hydra-Shok.

I think the PF calculation I provided is telling; as I said before, a PF of 200 is going to hinder 2nd shot times for most shooters (myself included).
This should be sufficient to answer the question of why I do not load up with the most nuclear hot 10mm ammo I can obtain.
As the data above shows, it is possible to shoot 10mm with calculated recoil comparable to 45 acp loads; however the KE levels generated by those "conservative" 10mm loads is much greater (31 - 33%) than that of the 45.

If I choose the model 29 (with one of the above loads) I gain two rounds capacity over the model 30 45 acp, I increase KE by about 1/3 while keeping recoil about the same, at the expense of 11% bullet diameter.

Is the 10mm too much gun?
Not based on 2nd shot follow up time with select ammunition (keep the PF below 200).
Is the 10mm too powerful for SD?
With 500 - 560# KE, those 10mm loads are comparable to 357 magnum 125 JHP KE levels when fired from a 4 inch "service" revolver, the police standard for many years.
How could a 10mm be "too powerful" but yet a 12 gauge shotgun (considerably more powerful) is perfectly acceptable? (Doesn't make sense)
If the use of a powerful 12 gauge shotgun (police standard and VP recommended) for SD is defendable, a lesser caliber hardly seems like overkill.
 
#18 ·
I carry my G29SF about 25% of the time and my KAHR CM9 the rest of the time. The G29sf is an EXCELLENT CCW if not just a little bit "thick". Fantastic choices for loads and even the most powerful 10mm SD loads will not ever penetrate like the old 10mm Norma loads from the 80's. It's all myth. In fact the extra speed offered the bullets actually opens them up like parachutes and they penetrate less at times.

Also, no, I see no difference in a courtroom on what caliber you used. The general rule is: it's either a "good shoot" or it's not. If it's not then a courtroom attack on the caliber choice is the least of your worries.
 
#19 ·
Well a conversation with a guy behind one of my trusted LGS' got me thinking: is shooting someone with literally a hunting caliber (almost guaranteed to saw a man in half) too much for self defense?
If it can be fired with one hand, it's still just a pathetic popgun, no matter what anyone tells you. Rifles and shotguns are powerful, handguns are not.
 
#21 ·
i grew up in bear country. i've been uncomfortably close to a 600 lbs black bear. i've killed 3. my friends have taken them. if i'm in bear country i don't feel safe with anything smaller than a .44 mag. i know .41 and .357 will do the trick, but if your surprised by a big bruin, you may need every foot pound you can get. and i've only ever been around black bears. but i've seen them knock stuff around our property and they are STRONG. if i was in Grizzly country? i don't know if ANY handgun would make me feel safe, *maybe* a .500 mag.-...maybe. but whoever told you that a 10mm auto pistol was suitable for Grizzly's was a fool or trying to get you killed. i don't care how big of a magazine it's got. maybe a belt fed gatling gun in 10mm!!

for SD though? can you really come up with a situation where a 10mm would do the job, and a .45 ACP wouldn't? is the guy being shot going to know the difference? to me it's like a .357 SIG. yes, on paper and thorugh a chrony it's great, but for the world of SD, again, what gy is going to NOT stop for a .45 ACP +P JHP, but will get stopped by a .357 sig or 10mm? just seems pointless.

MY OPINION ONLY- i have zero data to back any of this up except my experience around bears. and i ALWAYS hiked bear country with a .44 mag, and i always hunted bears with a .44 mag, and minimum .300 mag. though i'm considering going after a blackie with my .30-.30....
 
#22 ·
Google Harold Fish.

The fact that he used a 10mm was used against him. But his conviction was overturned and at least he passed away a free man.

That being said, prosecutors can use anything against you, including the use of hollow point self defense rounds. About a year ago I found cases supporting this. The Z trial also showed what prosecutors will do - carrying with a round chambered, no safety, etc.

I don't worry about what a prosecutor might do. If I had a 10mm for carry, I'd still carry it.
 
#24 ·
There is a lot of internet myth built up around the 10mm cartridge and repeated every time a thread pops up. It is not a hunting cartridge unless you also consider the .357 magnum revolver a hunting only cartridge. It will not cut a man or bear in two. The 10mm was developed around the .38-40 cartridge popular with law enforcement in the late 1800s and the desire to have .357 magnum ballistics in a semi-autos. The .38-40 shoots a 40 caliber bullet and can be loaded up to 10mm levels in a modern gun. I had a Ruger Blackhawk convertible in .38-40/10mm that could be loaded to the same ballistics. I carry a 10mm when I would also feel comfortable carrying a .357 magnum revolver.

Commercial 10mm ammo averages from around 420 ft./lbs. to 775 ft./lbs. of muzzle energy. Commercial .357 magnum ammo averages from around 400 ft./lbs. to 800 ft./lbs. of muzzle energy. People on the internet like to compare the 10mm to the .41 magnum which averages from around 600 ft./lbs. to 1100 ft./lbs. of muzzle energy. As you can see, the 10mm matches much closer to the .357 magnum. I carry a .44 magnum in black bear country. The .44 magnum averages from around 800 ft./lbs. to 1400 ft./lbs. of muzzle energy. When I worked in brown bear and moose areas, I carried an S&W 460 magnum rated at 2,300 ft./lbs. of muzzle energy which is close to the .308 rifle cartridge in muzzle energy.
 
#25 ·
"Almost guaranteed to saw a man in half..." :lmao:

That's it, case closed. I'm switching my CC to twin 10mm's in a shoulder holster. :evillaugh2:

In all seriousness, no, I wouldn't say it's "too much gun for SD". If you can shoot it accurately, I'd say it's just right for the occasion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DrDP6
#26 ·
Heck I carry a mp5 in 10mm but then again I do work mall security
 
#29 ·
I personally believe that a 10 MM is an excellent choice. To answer the question...NO it is not too much for self defense.
It might be too much for YOU if cant handle it effectively or master it.


Just as I wouldn't recommend a .44 Magnum for a beginner, I wouldn't expect them to do well with a 10 either. Its not for the faint of heart or the girly men that we seem to be breeding these days.

A handgun IS a compromise. We carry them because they are fairly light and easy to conceal or tote...unlike a long arm. If one really though that they might have to shoot someone, the smarter ones would be carrying rifles.

Since we cant do that, we compromise by carrying handguns. Of all of the ones out there, the 10MM beats them hands down in capacity, ease of carry and power.
 
#30 ·
To the OP: rent a 10mm Glock at the range and bring an electronic shot timer. If you can put full-house 10mm rounds onto the target at the same rate (rounds per second) that you can with a .45 ACP Glock you are good to go for the 10mm. We are talking maximum rate of coarsely aimed fire here, riding the link to minimize the reset time and travel, and just getting rounds into the vital torso zone.
 
#33 ·
My nephew just had to have a Glock 29 last year for his first pistol. I tried to talk him into a Glock 19, M&P 9mm, or a Ruger SR9 but he wanted the 29 and that is exactly what he got. He had never shot anything more than a .22 pistol before he bought the Glock. I have been pleasantly suprised at how well he shoots and controls that darn pistol. The only downside I see to the 10mm is the cost of ammo, especially to those that don't reload. If you are willing to spend the money and are competent with it, the 10mm is certainly up to the task.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top