December 28th, 2006 01:38 AM
My CCW Finalists- G30 and G36 (Long Post)
Sometime after January 1, we Kansans will start getting our CCL's. In preparation for that, I did an exhaustive search for what I hope to be my primary concealed weapon. I thought I would share for those that are interested my thought process and testing over a 6 month period and the guns I went through on my quest. I currently have a SW 642 and a Sig 232 that are both fine candidates for future carry. However, my wife loves the 232 (which is currently her nightstand gun) and the 642 is great for pocket carry, but for only being a .38, it can be a little beast to control at times.
First, let me start out by saying, I am not a Glock guy or a 1911 guy. I like both. I like wheelguns, too. I learned to shoot when I was a teenager with my dad's 357's and Colt 1911. I own a Glock 21. I have owned and sold a Glock 17 and Glock 19 and replaced them with a CZ75B and a Sig P228. I have owned various 1911's and will someday own another one.
I was open to most makes and models as long as they fit my criteria and I had access to them. I also wanted the largest cal I could handle effectively. (Sidenote: I didn't get to try some of the models in 40SW simply because they weren't always available.) So here's my criteria:
-Must be able to shoot each gun being evaluated at least 50 rounds (I used WWB for most of the testing)
-Must be reliable and can take a beating
-Availability of parts and night sites
-Must shoot well from a Weaver and Isosceles Stance
-Must shoot well single handed, right and left hand (I am right handed.)
-The gun will always be carried with a round chambered (Condition 1 for 1911s)
All of the guns were either rented or borrowed.
First Round (50-150 rds of WWB):
CZ 2075 Rami (9mm)- pinky finger curled under the magazine. Could never get a good handle on it. I like my CZ75b a lot, amazingly accurate and trouble free. But this one got the cut. (Borrowed)
Glock 19 (9mm)- owned a Generation 2 about 15 years ago. Fine pistol, worked fine. Good groups. Passed. (Borrowed)
Glock 26 (9mm)- fired great, but didn't fit my hand very well. Pinky finger issue. Cut. (Rented)
Glock 23 (40SW)- fired great, but groups weren't so great. I shot 150 rounds of WWB box and just didn't get it together. Cut. (Borrowed)
Glock 27 (40SW)- fired great, but didn't fit my hand well. Groups were horrible. 50 Rounds. Cut. (Rented)
Glock 30 (45ACP)- fired great, fit my hand well. Excellent groups. 50 Rounds. Passed. (Borrowed)
Glock 36 (45ACP)- fired great, fit my hand ok. Good groups. 50 Rounds. Passed. (Borrowed)
H&K USP Compact .45- fired great, fit my hand ok. Good groups. 1 FTE with WWB. Passed. (Borrowed)
Kahr P9 (9mm)- not bad feeling, slim. Decent group. 1 FTE with WWB. Didn't like trigger much. Cut. (Borrowed)
Kahr PM9 (9mm)- didn't fit hand well at all. Horrible groups. 1 FTE with WWB. Cut (Borrowed)
Kahr P45 (45ACP)- not bad feeling. Horrible groups. Cut. (Borrowed)
Keltec P-11 (9mm)- didn't fit hand well at all. In fact, felt cheap. Only shot 20 rounds. Cut. (Borrowed)
SA XDSC 9mm- fired great, excellent groups, not sure about the trigger or feel. Passed. (Rented)
SA XD Compact .45 Did not like the trigger for some reason. My groups were decent. Cut. (Rented)
Kimber Ultra Carry (.45ACP). I liked the feel. Fired well, good group. Passed. (Borrowed)
I thought it was interesting that I am a horrible shot with the 40SWs that I tried. Could be mental. I have a SW99 that is fairly accurate, but it's not the most comfortable gun to shoot. I was also amazed that I was shooting the 45s as well as the 9mm. My Glock 21 is pretty accurate and I have over 10,000 rounds through it. Could be why the Glocks are going well for me.
Second Round (100 rds of WWB)
Glock 19- performed well, excellent groups. (Borrowed)
H&K USP Compact .45- performed well, horrible groups. (Borrowed)
SA XDSC 9mm- performed ok, good groups, 1 FTEs. (Rented)
Glock 30- performed well, excellent groups. (Borrowed)
Glock 36- performed well, good groups. (Borrowed)
Kimber Ultra Carry- performed poorly (4 FTE) good groups (Borrowed)
I was surprised by the Kimber. Could have been a bad box, but it made me nervous enough to cut it. I shot poorly with the H&K and really didn't gel with it. Both the Glock 30 and 36 did well for their size and cal. I cut the Glock 19 for size of the gun and the SA XDSC since I shot both the Glock 30 and Glock 36 better.
Final Round (100 rounds of UMC, 100 rounds of WWB, 25 rounds of Golden Sabre)
Day 1 Glock 30- Excellent groups with UMC. No FTEs. (Borrowed)
Day 1 Glock 36- Decent groups with UMC. 2 FTEs. 1 FTE with each clip. (Borrowed)
Figured I would use rentals for my second run, since they probably have had several rounds through them.
Day 2 Glock 30- Excellent groups with WWB. Excellent groups with Golden Sabre. No FTEs (Rented)
Day 2 Glock 36- Good groups with WWB. 2 FTEs. Only had 1 clip. Good groups with Golden Sabre. No FTEs (Rented)
This was an expensive search, but I had to know first hand what was going to work for me. Yes, I know using WWB and UMC isn't the best testing ammo for a gun, but it's cheaper and I figure whichever gun I chose should be able to cycle anything within reason. Between the two, I really wanted to like the Glock 36, since it's slimmer profile is a bit better for concealed carry. Of the two Glock 30's I tested, both the borrowed and the rental fired whatever I put through it and was amazingly accurate. I shot it well in both stances and it felt better than the Glock 36 one handed. The Glock 36 is a pretty good gun, but the FTEs bothered me considering I used two different ones. I figured it is a bit of a trade off for comfort, but I would much rather have the accuracy and reliability.
So I bought the Glock 30 today and put about 250 rounds of UMC though it right after buying it. Not one FTE and it was dead on accurate. I will put another 750 rounds through it before I will consider it ready for carry, but right now I am very optimistic that I found the right gun for me.
December 28th, 2006 01:56 AM
December 28th, 2006 02:27 AM
Excellent test and write-up! Thanks for posting this...as Ti said, it will be a valuable starting point for a lot of new CCW holders...
"I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York
"They're ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six"- Jeff Cooper
December 28th, 2006 07:01 AM
Very logical and methodical
Not many people who are getting their CCW permit for the first time will go through such a careful evaluation of possible guns for carry. I have to compliment you on your approach, which was both logical and methodical.
The Glock 30 has become sort of a classic gun of the small .45 category, yet still having good magazine capacity. I don't have one, but have read many favorable reports about it. I recall one day at the range standing next to a man who was practicing drawing and firing a G30 at a silhouette target, and I was very impressed with how well the gun was working for him, and the small groups he was shooting.
Now you just have to find the right holster for the Glock. Here is a good review of the gun:
Glock 30 review article
December 28th, 2006 07:52 AM
I also went through a similar process as you, though not as extensive. I also went w/ a Glock 30 that I absolutely love. Best shooting Glock IMO. It is currently my bedside gun and I carry sometimes OWB in a Kramer Scabbard. Will probably see more action when my MaxCon arrives for it. Some seem to dislike the grip size. It is fine for me, and I have small hands. BTW, I can't get that gun to malfunction. Shoot well!
December 28th, 2006 08:11 AM
Boy...nobody can say that you didn't try hard to find yourself an ideal firearm. Good job.
Well, the GLOCK pistols have an amazing reputation for functional reliability.
When you come across a loaner pistol or borrowed Glock with function related problems then those problems are usually not the fault of the pistol. Some "range guns" are famous for sucking big time.
Never base the general reliability of a firearm on either a loaner pistol or after having only shot Winchester White Box because honestly some "mighty fine" pistols just cannot tolerate that ammunition.
Just my personal opinion.
December 28th, 2006 08:16 AM
Great input! That should be helpful to a lot of people for both the gun you picked and the methodology you used.
EOD - Initial success or total failure
December 28th, 2006 09:59 AM
Good run down. Very useful information for the guns you listed.
"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton.
December 28th, 2006 09:59 AM
pogo2, I just visited that site and explored lots of others guns there as well as the G30. Very interesting all though the background they use made reading somewhat difficult for my old eyes.
Originally Posted by pogo2
Be Alert and Stay Safe
December 28th, 2006 10:08 AM
Excellent write up. Glad ya found what worked for you. Way back when I went with a Glock 36. What a pos; I couldn't hit MOH (minute of house) with it if i had muzzle pressed to the siding.
I almost bought a Glock 30 to replace it but was little leary of the small Glocks by then. One good thing about the 30 is tyat you can use your 21 mags in it.
December 28th, 2006 10:33 AM
Wow great report. One question for you though...did the rental guns have Glock factory magazines or aftermarket mags?
December 28th, 2006 10:46 AM
Certainly A Thorough Search...
Congrats on your 'find'...this should give you the confidence you need to depend upon your '30' for EDC...
Stay armed...stay safe!
The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member[/B]
December 28th, 2006 11:25 AM
As said, good write up. Glad you found what works for you.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
December 28th, 2006 01:27 PM
Yes, the rentals had factory mags. They only give you one, though.
Originally Posted by raysheen
Part of the reason I wanted to use the rentals for the final round with both cheap and decent ammo was to see how well they would respond, considering the fact both guns would probably have been neglected. Despite the FTEs of the G36, both of the range rentals shot pretty similar groups to the ones I had borrowed. The rental G30 shot tighter groups than my own G21. Both of the borrowed Glocks are very well maintained and both have less than 1,000 rounds through them.
Originally Posted by Ti Carry
I agree with you to some extent. My dad's Colt 1911 is very finicky with ammo and is probably my favorite pistol to shoot. Since I plan on carrying all of the time, another part of my reasoning (or OCD) was the what ifs...What if I get caught in a snowstorm with the family? What if I have to spend a lot of time outside exposed to the elements with only my carry piece?...What if I had to deal with a Katrina situation or a major disaster (tornadoes...I do live in Kansas..). Just situations where I wouldn't be able to keep the gun in pristine condition for a period of time or had to use whatever ammo I could get access too. I usually have a pretty good stock of WWB at home for the range and plinking out in the country. I didn't initially start thinking about all the possible "scenarios" until they were discussed during my CCL class, which certainly adjusted my criteria along the way.
Originally Posted by QKShooter
Regarding the Kimber and the FTEs, my buddy just about had a heart attack when he heard that I put WWB through his beloved. I think he actually cleaned it again (after I did) just to make sure there wasn't any WWB residue. His reaction was similar to my friends with expensive sports cars that can only run on premium gas. Again, the surprising thing for me, was that I shot better groups with the rented Glocks than the Kimber.
Thanks for all of your comments. It was actually a fun process. I just hope this freakin G30 stands up over time and I don't have to start all over again.
December 28th, 2006 03:15 PM
I rented a G36 the other day, and was pretty happy with the way it shot. I guess I'll have to try the G30, but I admit I'm a bit leery of the extra girth. The slimline design of the G36 and the .45 chambering combined are what make it attractive to me.
Thanks for taking the time to share!
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