What distance to the target? 7, 10, 25 yards?
This is a discussion on Can't hit anything with my 357 SP101. within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I really love the feel of this gun but since I got it 5 months ago I haven't been able to shoot real well with ...
I really love the feel of this gun but since I got it 5 months ago I haven't been able to shoot real well with it. It shoots high even at the 6 o'clock position hold. It is a snubbie but man it's out there with its shots. I fired a friends Rossi tonight and was hitting what I was aiming at. I've been looking at a j frame for awhile, but what I want to know is - is this simply a training issue or if after another month or so of shooting I can't seem to place the shots in a good group, do I sell it for another snubbie like the j frame? As always, you guys are great and very helpful so thank you.
What distance to the target? 7, 10, 25 yards?
"...there is no arguing with such snivelling puppies, who allow superiors to kick them about deck at pleasure."
– Captain Bellamy
Different grip angle; different balance and weight; different grips and how it rides in your hand; possibly also different ammo. All of these things can make a difference between one gun and the next. Though, I'm surprised that the heavier SP-101 is what's giving you troubles.
Can you describe how you're holding the gun, what your basic stance is, how rapidly you're shooting, what your ammo is when POI is "out there"? Hard to imagine it's you, really, if other guns are just fine.
But then, balance/weight/length issues can indeed change how one gun behaves in the hand as compared to another.
That being said, I've shot the SP-101 in mild .38 target loads, basic .357 and hot .357. The hot .357 loads jump all over, for me. Makes little sense to me, but it does. standard .38's and comparatively pokey .357's do just fine, more or less, though snubbies aren't my thing (accuracy-wise).
Are you consistently off at the same spot (ie, ~4-5" high at 7yds)? Or, is it just plain tough to keep shots anywhere on target, with them bouncing all over without an apparent pattern? If it's consistently the same degree off, perhaps it's just a sighting adjustment issue.
I shot 2 boxes of 357 ammo out of my LCR 357 today and shot it pretty darn accurate. I previously had the LCR 38 spl and shot that well. But with the 357 rounds, I had a much tighter grip, also a bit higher on the gun. I leaned more into my stance and found that this worked well in controlling the LCR.
I hold thumbs forward, stance is typical legs apart, steady stance. Target can be anywhere from 3 yards to 20 yards. I don't get consistency anywhere, it's why I'm frustrated. Shooting while taking my time and deep breaths, and shooting via quick draw. 38s and 357s equal. Both da and sa are equally off. Really if I hit anywhere near my intended spot it's sheer luck. I was hoping to improve it with training but no avail. For what it's worth, my friend shot with it and was getting consistently high poi's. Quick draws are pitiful - at 3 yards and a silhouette it knicked the top of the TARGET when aiming center of mass. Shooting low for the gut nailed a shot in the CNS via the neck. Still, not where I was pointing. Not feeling confident even as a khaki carry for this gun. But again - maybe it's me. Just open for advice here.
Best revolver hold is different (in fact, thumbs forward can be near-dangerous if you get them near the forcing cone). My recommendation to learn: stretch your strong hand open as hard as you can, so the web between thumb and index of strong hand stretches, and push that web firmly as near the top of the grip as possible, wrapping your hand around the grip. Support hand now wraps around strong hand, webbing of that hand right over the inner knuckle of your strong thumb, with fingers wrapping around fingers of strong hand.
Revolver forward, elbows locked out.
Start with dry fires a couple inches from a spot on the wall. If possible, have a buddy watch you. If your SP has a hammer spur, try SA at first to isolate trigger errors as much as possible. Then work on DA. Once that goes well, go to live fire (again SA at first) with .38spl. Start at 3 yards or even less before moving back.
Obviously, don't carry this till you can hit where you're aiming, and don't work on quick draws yet. Find the grip that works for you (this might not, but it's the one I have used on revolvers for almost 3 decades). Once you do and want to go to draws, slow everything down and break it into parts, working on each segment of the draw until it's right, painfully slow. Again, dry fire first.
…oh, and it goes without saying. Don't try this grip on a semi-auto. I've got a scar on my left thumb from ~25 years ago (from a damned .25 Raven) that tells why.
How do side by side targets compare when you shoot a different gun.
My first thought is shooter. You never stated what group size was at a specific distance. And how does that compare with other guns?
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Seems like this particular model of gun doesn't match your technique of hold/firing, strength, or whatever it is about you that causes a given gun to feel just perfect.
What I mean is this ... The CZ P-01, for example, feels perfect in my hands, and it's just about as accurate as anything I've ever held. The Glock 19, by comparison, feels that it points quite a bit high, but it's equally as accurate for me, even when I haven't shot it for 5yrs+. I need to make subtle adjustments when holding and aiming the Glock to accommodate. Minor stuff, really, but adjustments all the same. Perhaps this is exactly what the distinction is with this gun, in terms of its weight/size/balance and whatever it is about your grip/aim/technique/strength that doesn't quite match it out-of-the-box.
I'd try slowing things way, way down. Try at a fixed distance, say 3-4yds. Focus on the fundamentals. Squeeze directly back and smoothly. You know the drill. Keep at that distance and fundamentals until you're consistently repeating performance, whatever that may be. If consistently high, once you're nailing it, then either (a) adjust your aim lower or (b) have the sights or grip adjusted to change the POA.
About all I can think of, at this point, that this particular gun's balance isn't quite an out-of-the-box match that some of your other sidearms seem to be. Keep in mind you've been shooting those other ones for awhile, and your muscle "memory" and technique is tuned to those. Minor adjustments aren't that uncommon, in my experience. I, too, am fairly inaccurate with snubbies, particularly lighter ones. But put a heavy, "old school" .357 or .44 in my hands with >40oz weight and >4" bbl, and it's practically raggedy-hole performance at the same distance. Yet, other shooters I've had grab them can fire both types equally well, as compared to me. Go figure. It's not the gun, per se; it's how well the gun matches what my body's doing.
have you taken it to your LGS and have them put a lazer pointer in the barrel then you can see if your aim is where the pistols is.I shot low and left with my xds and dead center with my glocks so took it in and its just me with a stiffer trigger .Practicing more with the xds this weekend
I doubt you'd do any better with a J frame. Smaller piece with every bit as much recoil. My J keeps me very humble on the range. It's taken a while to get anywhere near good with it. Still have to make a conscious effort to remember grip and trigger pull, (especially DA), whenever I use it. MHO? Stick with the Ruger, practice x3.
I had a similar experience with a CM9. I could not hit anything with it. I switch to a Sig 238 and am spot on. I think for me it was the long trigger pull that was throwing me off-although the Sig sights are much better than Kahr. If after much practice you don't get any better you may want to look at something else.
What sight picture are you using? Do a search on revolver grip methods and you'll see there's several different grip methods for revolvers than semis. A bore laser will most definitely tell you where the sights are pointing in relation to the barrel. If they are in synch, then it isn't a gun issue but a shooter issue. A bore laser will be less expensive than several hundred more rounds of ammo and will tell you instantly what you need to know.
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Loosen the grips and wiggle them around, make sure they are seated properly, another thing is the grips themselves, how do they fit your hand, are they the same design as the Rossi that you can hit with?that plain black rubber grip that comes on the 101 leaves a lot to be desired for me
Baring a mechanical problem, I can almost assure you it is you and/or something you are doing. Have you thought of having someone else shoot your weapon to see how they do? Seems like a cheap way to find out if something is wrong as it should only cost you 5 rounds.
The 1911 is an antiquated weapons system but then again, so am I.
Retired SF(SP) CMSgt 1979-2005
Shooting high, just take less of the front sight into your sight picture. Or change the front sight to better suit your needs, one of the advantages of a SP is the ability to change the front sight. Also, hotter ammo will lower your point of impact. Before you do a sight change, if you decide to go that route, make sure and settle on a preferred load.
“Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.”