A disappointing and alarming FTF with my M&P at the range…

A disappointing and alarming FTF with my M&P at the range…

This is a discussion on A disappointing and alarming FTF with my M&P at the range… within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was getting near the 300 round mark, without cleaning my M&P when it happened. I reloaded, pulled the trigger and it just went to ...

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Thread: A disappointing and alarming FTF with my M&P at the range…

  1. #1
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    A disappointing and alarming FTF with my M&P at the range…

    I was getting near the 300 round mark, without cleaning my M&P when it happened. I reloaded, pulled the trigger and it just went to the rear. Ahhh…I didn’t seat the magazine, but it was seated. I removed the magazine and reinserted it; still the trigger wasn’t connecting. I removed that mag and inserted an empty mag; still the trigger wasn’t connecting. I reinserted a mag with 5 rounds in it, and racked the slide. The trigger connected and I didn’t see the problem again. Still if my life had been on the line, instead of on the range, I likely wouldn’t be writing this.

    I wish now that I had tried to evaluate the problem at the range, but the lighting in the “booth” isn’t that great and I guess I wanted to see what it would take to get it going ASAP.

    When I got home, I called S&W service and described the problem, and of course they had never seen or heard of such a thing. They suggested that I clean it and fire some more rounds through it and see how it does. If it did it again, he suggested that S&W would need to take a look at it.

    I field stripped it and examined the mag disconnect. It worked perfectly and there were no signs of a problem.

    Here’s how the mag disconnect works: When a mag is inserted, the mag disconnect lever is rotated 90° by the mag. A cam on the lever allows the trigger bar to move toward the center of the gun and engage the sear in the frame. When the mag is removed, as you pull the trigger rearward, the mag lever is released and rotates into the disconnect position. As it does, the cam on the lever forces the trigger toward the right side of the frame which disengages the trigger bar from the sear.

    So what caused the FTF? Here’s my analysis:
    When a mag is inserted, the mag disconnect bar has no choice but to rotate upward; if it can’t the mag can’t go in, soooo, the problem isn’t with the mag disconnect lever. So something had to prevent the trigger bar from engaging the sear. There aren’t many options here. No doubt, dirt and/or debris, or perhaps a flake of flashing or something from the factory got between the trigger bar and the frame, preventing the trigger bar from engaging the sear. I doubt that I’ll ever know.

    But the nagging issue is that it did happen, so it can happen. Would dropping an M&P in the sand/dirt cause the problem? I don’t know, but I find it disturbing. In comparison, Glock reps bury a Glock in the dirt/sand at shooting schools, then dig it up and invite the entire class shoot it as a demonstration of how reliable it is.

    The S&W service guy said they clean about every 500 rounds. I know guys that shoot over 20 times that many rounds through their Glocks before they expect a malfunction.

    Well, anyway, you can be sure, I’m gonna run a bunch of rounds through my M&P. And, I’m not gonna clean it until I’ve got about 1000 rounds through it – I want to know what I can expect of it.


  2. #2
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    Well, more parts means more chance of something failing. Not to bash the M&P, but I doubt I would buy any new model gun during the first year or so.
    Someone else can buy/test the design before I spend my money on one(again).
    Hope the problem gets cleared up for ya.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    Not too encouraging Ron - mainly because it's one of those things unless totally explained and so remedied, which make you wonder from henceforward.

    Dan Burwell - a member here and also a gunsmith -(shoot with him at local club for IDPA etc) ..... showed me his some while back and at that time had been very pleased, using it for IDPA successfully.

    So - I'd be interested to hear his take on it but unfortunately he does not manage to drop by that often. So far looks like a need for much more thruput yet.
    Chris - P95
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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Let us know what ya find out

    i don't trust the mag disconnects myself

    Haven't fooled with the M&P so cant offer any help

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    Member Array ShackleMeNot's Avatar
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    I shot a prototype before it was released and thought it was just OK.

    Rocky is right about more parts making it more likely something can break.
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  6. #6
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    As Bud said, I too do not trust mag disconnecters.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    VIP Member Array frankmako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    As Bud said, I too do not trust mag disconnecters.
    that goes for me too. one of the reason that i carry a glock.
    An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.

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    Member Array John Wesley's Avatar
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    Sorry about the problem. It sounds like the mag disconnect isn't the problem in your case. It does sound like my experience with my Ruger though.

    After my Ruger 345 had a few failures to fire when it was new (primers were not touched )I REMOVED the mag disconnect. - No more problem. (They seem to be known for that.) Sounds like S&W has a much better design for their disconnect at least.

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    Post

    I'd disassemble and do a careful visual of the internals and just take a real close look at all of the metal surfaces and the inside of the frame for anything out of the ordinary.

    Then I would start over from square one. Yup, that's what I would do.

    Clean the pistol inside & out throughly & lube it and then do another 500 through it without cleaning it.

    It could have been something as simple as a burr or a metal shaving that has already worked its way either off or out.
    Also (on tupperware pistols) look for any thin extruded polymer "leaves" at the "mold seam areas" & knock (or cut) any of those off if you spot them.

    I'm not aware of any inherent design flaws with the S&W M&P - none that I've read about anywhere on the web so far.

    So that's good news...I would just throughly clean it and start again.
    Sometimes strange and inexplicable things happen with brand new (otherwise great) pistols...not so much...with revolvers.

    Not a cause for undue concern yet.

  10. #10
    PJH
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    Now I'm extra glad that I got one WITHOUT the mag disconnect! Hope it turns out OK.

    -Paul

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    I'd disassemble and do a careful visual of the internals and just take a real close look at all of the metal surfaces and the inside of the frame for anything out of the ordinary.

    Then I would start over from square one. Yup, that's what I would do.

    Clean the pistol inside & out throughly & lube it and then do another 500 through it without cleaning it.

    It could have been something as simple as a burr or a metal shaving that has already worked its way either off or out.
    Also (on tupperware pistols) look for any thin extruded polymer "leaves" at the "mold seam areas" & knock (or cut) any of those off if you spot them.

    I'm not aware of any inherent design flaws with the S&W M&P - none that I've read about anywhere on the web so far.

    So that's good news...I would just throughly clean it and start again.
    Sometimes strange and inexplicable things happen with brand new (otherwise great) pistols...not so much...with revolvers.

    Not a cause for undue concern yet.
    I agree this would be a good plan. Did you clean the gun thoroughly before taking it to the range? I have heard of metal shaving, metal dust and even loose springs, bolts etc.. left in a shipped gun.
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  12. #12
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    I tend to think this was a 'one time' thing - a piece of something flake, flashing, etc. got in a sensitive place.

    The first thing I'm gonna do is simply shoot it some more. I want to put at least 300 more rounds through it just like it is and see if it happens again. If the problem is a result of debris accumulation from shooting, I should see the problem again pretty quickly.

    Based on my conversation with S&W, much input from folks that have far more rounds through their M&P than I, this seems to be a unique problem. From what I've seen, these things work great.

    The upside of this is, I have to shoot more to test the gun, right? Guess what I'm gonna do this afternoon!

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