This is a discussion on High End 1911 within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by eljuez Any of the guns that have been discussed are excellent, but for me the question always comes down to customer service. ...
When the dust settles only the prepared will survive.
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Shoot low boys their riding Shetland ponies.
I own an Ed Brown Kobra Carry and am extremely pleased with the gun and service they provide. I got exactly what I wanted for under $2500. I've had Kimbers and SA's and believe me, there is no comparison.
I've shot Les Baer, Wilson Combat- several models, and STI.
Les Baer all the way- best guns ever. Oh, thats not opinion- its fact! (just kidding guys)
I’m curious, because I also read some stuff about Les Baer’s CS, and after having actually used his CS, I wonder about some of the other stuff I’ve read. Take this with a grain of salt too :
I had a problem with the rear sight on my Concept V, somehow an internal screw became stripped, bad part, don’t know my own strength, I dunno what happened. I figured based on what I’d read about Baer, I might be hosed. This was after the gun was a year old and I’d put about 8K through it. Called the shop, and was connected to Les. After a brief but very pleasant conversation, he told me to send the slide in. I had the slide with new sight back in my hands 8 days later. No chit, no ogre like exchanges, just prompt courteous service. Every time I’ve dealt with them, questions etc. I’ve received prompt replies.
I think that some of the CS episodes, positive and negative, you read about are a result of attitudes. You get more flies with sugar sort of thing. Some guys would be miffed about a part on a close to 2K pistol breaking, in that cost should guarantee reliability, which in most cases it does. But, anything man-made is subject to breakage, everyone sooner or later lets something out of their shop they wished they hadn’t.
So I guess I assumed a little risk buying a Baer after some of the things I’d read. Then I bought the second one from an informed point of view.
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Counting i work in Repair i can tell ya there are 2 sides to ever story and when we are called by the office to ask about a exchange with the customer its usually way different than how it went down
I have called Les Baer CS once and they were very friendly and helped me over the phone
Thanks for all the input guys! It sounds like I can't really go wrong with any of the high end custom 1911's everyone has mentioned. I'll be sure to let you know what I end up with and post some pics.
The 1911 platform is one of the best guns you can get for carry and protection. I trusted my life to one in the military and I trust and carry one today. There are a lot 1911's out there today and finding the one you like is key. Do some research on the differnet makers and take a stroll over to the 1911 forum http://forums.1911forum.com/ and see what people have to say about the different makers and quality. Service after the sale is one thing that you need to look into.
I agree that one should view anything on the internet with caution. I have personal experience with customer service at Nighthawk, Wilson and Baer. Two stood out as exceptional. The experience with Baer (dealt with Les personally) wasn't as good. It was a quality control issue that was obvious and it took a long time to resolve at my cost. If you have a problem with Brown or Baer, you pay for the shipping. Wilson and Nighthawk pay for all shipping and often include some free extras for your time. Everybody has things that are important to them. There are different philosophies on how to build the best .45. I've shot almost all the top semi-production guns and a lot from the top smiths and I don't find a great deal of difference among any of them. For me it comes down to how will I be dealt with if there is a problem. Nighthawk and Wilson stand behind the guns they make, no matter if your the original owner or not . So, they're my choice and that's just a personal decision on my part. Others obviously differ and that's fine.
Last edited by eljuez; March 6th, 2007 at 01:00 PM. Reason: spelling
I wont bore you with my daliances in the 1911 universe, but they have ranged from an old colt, SA, Wilson, Baer, NHC...
I have to agree with the majority here and say that Les Baer is the best value 1911 going. Every time I look at a lower cost (mid-range) 1911, I think to myself, "for a couple hundred bucks more, I could have a Baer and never have to mess with it."
Warning: Baers are BORING guns. The dont have the fanciness of Browns, Nighthawks, Wilsons, but they work... and work and work and work. Accurate and reliable out of the box and for the next 100k rounds.
"Happiness, is a warm gun" -St. John of Liverpool
Proud to be an infidel.
In all honesty I would never in my life spend that much money on a handgun that didn't do my taxes for me. Carrying is about defensive accuracy not pin point shoot the flies off his shirt accuracy. By the time you have your sights aligned and are letting the first shot go that guy has KILLED you and taken your $3,000 pistol. Also, when shopping around for a defensive handgun accuracy is by no means at the top of the list!!! Does the gun go bang when the trigger is pulled should be your biggest concern. Very accurate tight tollerance 1911's are great for target shooting, but do not fall into the total reliability catagory. IDPA is about accuracy but its also about time. By the time you get the two shots in the zone i've shot 3 targets with a 9mm and dropped only one point because its less recoil and faster to get back into action, and i'm doing a reload. 1 point=.5 a second.
1. Accurate “high-end” 1911’s are inherently un-reliable?
2. People armed with “high-end” 1911’s are more likely to be KILLED in a gunfight due to taking excessive time to align their sights?
3. Someone has been KILLED due to the increased time required to service multiple targets due to the heavier recoil of a .45 vs. a 9mm?
That’s pretty much the points you’re attempting to make, aren’t they? I’m curious because I’ve never read anything on this, nor has it been mentioned in any of the training I’ve received. Based on the original question for the thread vs. your strong opinion I’m sure you’ve got some substantive documentation.
IDPA, is a game plain and simple, I shoot it regularly, but it’s still not a great assessment of handgun effectiveness. The holes in the cardboard targets have the same “value” or effectiveness regardless of the caliber used; there is no minor Vs major caliber. So in effect, you’re right, any caliber over 9mm in IDPA is “overkill”, or above and beyond the minimum requirements to play the “game”.
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Personally that was own assessment I have made. I was saying that I wouldn't bet my life on a high end gun made for shooting at the competative level.
I hear the 1911 argument daily at both my jobs. However, I also see the level of skill and proficiency that comes through the door at two very big ranges. That level of skill is not very high!
Studies, actually I was talking to guy who was with a PD out of TN. He was tasked to find out why in his department where cops guns malfunctioning. He was not really experienced in testing or researching this topic, but he got smart. He decided to first look at why did cops guns fail to go off when the cop wanted the gun to go off. He found a failure that he saw repeat several times. Failure to disengage safety by the officer, I'm not a cop nor do I have this documented. This is not by any means a huge federal agency, but it opened his eyes. The lack of the use of even a simple flick of the thumb resulted in the situtation to turn out bad for the good guy, There also seems to be a trend for guns being carried on the hips of militaries and law enforcement departments through out the world-----> that trend says near 70% of guns on hips of cops and military's are Tactical Tupperwear mostly Glocks.
1911's are by no means 100% reliable.
My part time work I work at a gun store and we rent out guns. Guns that are never cleaned and are shot a lot, we also keep a pretty close account of a rounds fired going through each platform whether its SIG, GLOCK, HK, or 1911's.
They all break and malfunction. However when "I" look for a gun to carry I don't look for something that people go wow that guns 3K. I look for a gun that when you pull the trigger it goes bang, and has good defensive accuracy, average defensive shooting is less about arms distance away, do you need a gun that shoots a 1 inch group from a ransom rest at 50 feet to do that? Are you ever even going to make it to your sights at that point? Comparing statistics probably not. Your going to be point shooting most time, or shooting from the hip in a speed rock or some kind of defensive retention close to the body. At this point your gun might as well not even have sights on them. Most of your lower tollerance guns that were created to acheive more reliability will acheive this just fine and keep have a greater margin of continuing to shoot. Most shooters can't shoot a non competion gun to its maximum potential let alone a competition gun.
IDPA is a game its not real life. Anything you add a point structure and clock your competing. If you going out to have fun and hone your skills thats fine shoot whatever you want. However, honing skills means your increasing speed and accuracy, something requiring more use of fine motor skills, and increase in felt recoil is going to hinder your progress in achieving this goal.
We just got in a SIG GSR a couple of weeks ago. Its down.
The Kimber Pro Carry II has 25,000 rounds through it. Every piece on that gun has been replaced at least once, except the Slide and the Frame.
Are Slim Frame Glock .45 finally broke but that was after 100,000 rounds through the the gun. That was due to a broken locking block which is about a 15 dollar piece which only takes a part swapper to drop in. No GunSmithing required. I've seen alot of IDPA shoots and see the guys out there with their high end 1911's having problems. I also see guys out there shooting $500 dollar pieces of Tactical Tupperwear beating the guys shooting the $3K plus guns. Heck didn't Dave Sevigny just do it with his his piece of plastic.
If you have money just sitting around in piles sure buy one I dont' care thats great awesome, but for new shooters and somebody who hasn't been doing it that long are they going to get the potential out of 3K gun ummm iffffy.
I also have a buddy who thinks 1911 greatest gun ever made (hes a prior Marine) there is no gun besides a 1911. He convinces everybody to buy a 1911.
Everyday I see him I ask him
Me: Hey Tim what gun are carrying today? He only ever gives me 2 answers.
Him My P7M8 or Most of the time G19. Why do you ask?
Me: Just checking.
I still would like to know whys hes not packing one of his 1911's.
Last edited by Rob99VMI04; March 8th, 2007 at 12:27 PM.