High End 1911

This is a discussion on High End 1911 within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by eljuez Any of the guns that have been discussed are excellent, but for me the question always comes down to customer service. ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array 1911shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eljuez View Post
    Any of the guns that have been discussed are excellent, but for me the question always comes down to customer service. Will I have any problems or aggravation if I need something fixed? The 'Big Four" of "semi-custom" 1911s,Brown, Baer, Wilson and Nighthawk all make great guns, but if you research the various forums, you'll quickly find two of the above, have a lot of complaints about the way they seem to handle a lot of complaints, i.e. it's the customers fault, not the guns. The other two, Nighthawk and Wilson just fix it and pay for the shipping, without any aggravation. That's why I bought guns from them. Just my personal experience.
    That is true in some respects but i havent had any trouble with my Baer, knock on wood. Wilson is great with their customer service, when i sent my CQB to them for a new recoil sping that just wouldnt let the slide cycle they fixed it sent it back and never ask a single question, the only thing that was said was thank you for calling and let us know if we can do anything else for you.
    When the dust settles only the prepared will survive.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    Agree

    Quote Originally Posted by 1911shooter View Post
    if your gonna spend that kind of cash buy a Les Baer TRP, they're way better then an Ed Brown and kick the crap out of Wilson.
    Agree with this 1000%
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  4. #18
    Member Array Eirerogue's Avatar
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    I own an Ed Brown Kobra Carry and am extremely pleased with the gun and service they provide. I got exactly what I wanted for under $2500. I've had Kimbers and SA's and believe me, there is no comparison.

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array kylebce's Avatar
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    I've shot Les Baer, Wilson Combat- several models, and STI.

    Les Baer all the way- best guns ever. Oh, thats not opinion- its fact! (just kidding guys)

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Chuck R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eljuez View Post
    Any of the guns that have been discussed are excellent, but for me the question always comes down to customer service. Will I have any problems or aggravation if I need something fixed? The 'Big Four" of "semi-custom" 1911s,Brown, Baer, Wilson and Nighthawk all make great guns, but if you research the various forums, you'll quickly find two of the above, have a lot of complaints about the way they seem to handle a lot of complaints, i.e. it's the customers fault, not the guns. The other two, Nighthawk and Wilson just fix it and pay for the shipping, without any aggravation. That's why I bought guns from them. Just my personal experience.
    I hear you and had the same concerns, but I take everything I read on the Internet with a tiny grain of salt. For instance, when you caveat your post with “Just my personal experience” do you mean that you’ve had experience with the above companies customer service, or you’ve read about it? Some of those complaints are the same issue posted on several sites.

    I’m curious, because I also read some stuff about Les Baer’s CS, and after having actually used his CS, I wonder about some of the other stuff I’ve read. Take this with a grain of salt too :

    I had a problem with the rear sight on my Concept V, somehow an internal screw became stripped, bad part, don’t know my own strength, I dunno what happened. I figured based on what I’d read about Baer, I might be hosed. This was after the gun was a year old and I’d put about 8K through it. Called the shop, and was connected to Les. After a brief but very pleasant conversation, he told me to send the slide in. I had the slide with new sight back in my hands 8 days later. No chit, no ogre like exchanges, just prompt courteous service. Every time I’ve dealt with them, questions etc. I’ve received prompt replies.

    I think that some of the CS episodes, positive and negative, you read about are a result of attitudes. You get more flies with sugar sort of thing. Some guys would be miffed about a part on a close to 2K pistol breaking, in that cost should guarantee reliability, which in most cases it does. But, anything man-made is subject to breakage, everyone sooner or later lets something out of their shop they wished they hadn’t.

    So I guess I assumed a little risk buying a Baer after some of the things I’d read. Then I bought the second one from an informed point of view.

    Chuck
    homo homini lupus est

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Counting i work in Repair i can tell ya there are 2 sides to ever story and when we are called by the office to ask about a exchange with the customer its usually way different than how it went down

    I have called Les Baer CS once and they were very friendly and helped me over the phone

  8. #22
    Member Array scmed's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the input guys! It sounds like I can't really go wrong with any of the high end custom 1911's everyone has mentioned. I'll be sure to let you know what I end up with and post some pics.

  9. #23
    Member Array Kid1911's Avatar
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    The 1911 platform is one of the best guns you can get for carry and protection. I trusted my life to one in the military and I trust and carry one today. There are a lot 1911's out there today and finding the one you like is key. Do some research on the differnet makers and take a stroll over to the 1911 forum http://forums.1911forum.com/ and see what people have to say about the different makers and quality. Service after the sale is one thing that you need to look into.

  10. #24
    Member Array eljuez's Avatar
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    I agree that one should view anything on the internet with caution. I have personal experience with customer service at Nighthawk, Wilson and Baer. Two stood out as exceptional. The experience with Baer (dealt with Les personally) wasn't as good. It was a quality control issue that was obvious and it took a long time to resolve at my cost. If you have a problem with Brown or Baer, you pay for the shipping. Wilson and Nighthawk pay for all shipping and often include some free extras for your time. Everybody has things that are important to them. There are different philosophies on how to build the best .45. I've shot almost all the top semi-production guns and a lot from the top smiths and I don't find a great deal of difference among any of them. For me it comes down to how will I be dealt with if there is a problem. Nighthawk and Wilson stand behind the guns they make, no matter if your the original owner or not . So, they're my choice and that's just a personal decision on my part. Others obviously differ and that's fine.
    Last edited by eljuez; March 6th, 2007 at 01:00 PM. Reason: spelling

  11. #25
    Member Array Ping Ping's Avatar
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    I wont bore you with my daliances in the 1911 universe, but they have ranged from an old colt, SA, Wilson, Baer, NHC...

    I have to agree with the majority here and say that Les Baer is the best value 1911 going. Every time I look at a lower cost (mid-range) 1911, I think to myself, "for a couple hundred bucks more, I could have a Baer and never have to mess with it."

    Warning: Baers are BORING guns. The dont have the fanciness of Browns, Nighthawks, Wilsons, but they work... and work and work and work. Accurate and reliable out of the box and for the next 100k rounds.
    B-O-R-I-N-G!
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    Proud to be an infidel.

  12. #26
    Member Array Mark Garrity's Avatar
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    In all honesty I would never in my life spend that much money on a handgun that didn't do my taxes for me. Carrying is about defensive accuracy not pin point shoot the flies off his shirt accuracy. By the time you have your sights aligned and are letting the first shot go that guy has KILLED you and taken your $3,000 pistol. Also, when shopping around for a defensive handgun accuracy is by no means at the top of the list!!! Does the gun go bang when the trigger is pulled should be your biggest concern. Very accurate tight tollerance 1911's are great for target shooting, but do not fall into the total reliability catagory. IDPA is about accuracy but its also about time. By the time you get the two shots in the zone i've shot 3 targets with a 9mm and dropped only one point because its less recoil and faster to get back into action, and i'm doing a reload. 1 point=.5 a second.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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  14. #28
    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Crunch View Post
    I would love to be able to afford a high-end 1911 pistol like a Baer, Brown or Wilson, but they're way out of my ballpark right now.

    Even if I could afford one, I would not use it for an everyday, or even occassional, carry piece. If you are involved in a self defense shooting, justified or not, your gun is almost certainly going to be seized, at least temporarily, by the police as evidence. The officer may or may not be a "gun guy" so he might not recognize or care that you just surrendered a 3 thousand dollar pistol.

    Your gun might be held in evidence for an extended period and stored in an evidence room under less than ideal conditions, maybe casually tossed into a box or bin with other guns. Think about your Wilson tossed onto a pile of "Saturday Night Specials".

    Something to keep in mind, IMO.
    That's true, but what price do you put on your life? I carry Les Bear most of the time, by the way I'am not rich.

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array Chuck R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    In all honesty I would never in my life spend that much money on a handgun that didn't do my taxes for me. Carrying is about defensive accuracy not pin point shoot the flies off his shirt accuracy. By the time you have your sights aligned and are letting the first shot go that guy has KILLED you and taken your $3,000 pistol. Also, when shopping around for a defensive handgun accuracy is by no means at the top of the list!!! Does the gun go bang when the trigger is pulled should be your biggest concern. Very accurate tight tollerance 1911's are great for target shooting, but do not fall into the total reliability catagory. IDPA is about accuracy but its also about time. By the time you get the two shots in the zone i've shot 3 targets with a 9mm and dropped only one point because its less recoil and faster to get back into action, and i'm doing a reload. 1 point=.5 a second.
    Can you reference any study that proves conclusively that:

    1. Accurate “high-end” 1911’s are inherently un-reliable?
    2. People armed with “high-end” 1911’s are more likely to be KILLED in a gunfight due to taking excessive time to align their sights?
    3. Someone has been KILLED due to the increased time required to service multiple targets due to the heavier recoil of a .45 vs. a 9mm?

    That’s pretty much the points you’re attempting to make, aren’t they? I’m curious because I’ve never read anything on this, nor has it been mentioned in any of the training I’ve received. Based on the original question for the thread vs. your strong opinion I’m sure you’ve got some substantive documentation.

    IDPA, is a game plain and simple, I shoot it regularly, but it’s still not a great assessment of handgun effectiveness. The holes in the cardboard targets have the same “value” or effectiveness regardless of the caliber used; there is no minor Vs major caliber. So in effect, you’re right, any caliber over 9mm in IDPA is “overkill”, or above and beyond the minimum requirements to play the “game”.

    Chuck
    homo homini lupus est

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Personally that was own assessment I have made. I was saying that I wouldn't bet my life on a high end gun made for shooting at the competative level.

    I hear the 1911 argument daily at both my jobs. However, I also see the level of skill and proficiency that comes through the door at two very big ranges. That level of skill is not very high!

    Studies, actually I was talking to guy who was with a PD out of TN. He was tasked to find out why in his department where cops guns malfunctioning. He was not really experienced in testing or researching this topic, but he got smart. He decided to first look at why did cops guns fail to go off when the cop wanted the gun to go off. He found a failure that he saw repeat several times. Failure to disengage safety by the officer, I'm not a cop nor do I have this documented. This is not by any means a huge federal agency, but it opened his eyes. The lack of the use of even a simple flick of the thumb resulted in the situtation to turn out bad for the good guy, There also seems to be a trend for guns being carried on the hips of militaries and law enforcement departments through out the world-----> that trend says near 70% of guns on hips of cops and military's are Tactical Tupperwear mostly Glocks.

    1911's are by no means 100% reliable.

    My part time work I work at a gun store and we rent out guns. Guns that are never cleaned and are shot a lot, we also keep a pretty close account of a rounds fired going through each platform whether its SIG, GLOCK, HK, or 1911's.

    They all break and malfunction. However when "I" look for a gun to carry I don't look for something that people go wow that guns 3K. I look for a gun that when you pull the trigger it goes bang, and has good defensive accuracy, average defensive shooting is less about arms distance away, do you need a gun that shoots a 1 inch group from a ransom rest at 50 feet to do that? Are you ever even going to make it to your sights at that point? Comparing statistics probably not. Your going to be point shooting most time, or shooting from the hip in a speed rock or some kind of defensive retention close to the body. At this point your gun might as well not even have sights on them. Most of your lower tollerance guns that were created to acheive more reliability will acheive this just fine and keep have a greater margin of continuing to shoot. Most shooters can't shoot a non competion gun to its maximum potential let alone a competition gun.

    IDPA is a game its not real life. Anything you add a point structure and clock your competing. If you going out to have fun and hone your skills thats fine shoot whatever you want. However, honing skills means your increasing speed and accuracy, something requiring more use of fine motor skills, and increase in felt recoil is going to hinder your progress in achieving this goal.

    We just got in a SIG GSR a couple of weeks ago. Its down.
    The Kimber Pro Carry II has 25,000 rounds through it. Every piece on that gun has been replaced at least once, except the Slide and the Frame.

    Are Slim Frame Glock .45 finally broke but that was after 100,000 rounds through the the gun. That was due to a broken locking block which is about a 15 dollar piece which only takes a part swapper to drop in. No GunSmithing required. I've seen alot of IDPA shoots and see the guys out there with their high end 1911's having problems. I also see guys out there shooting $500 dollar pieces of Tactical Tupperwear beating the guys shooting the $3K plus guns. Heck didn't Dave Sevigny just do it with his his piece of plastic.

    If you have money just sitting around in piles sure buy one I dont' care thats great awesome, but for new shooters and somebody who hasn't been doing it that long are they going to get the potential out of 3K gun ummm iffffy.

    I also have a buddy who thinks 1911 greatest gun ever made (hes a prior Marine) there is no gun besides a 1911. He convinces everybody to buy a 1911.

    Everyday I see him I ask him

    Me: Hey Tim what gun are carrying today? He only ever gives me 2 answers.
    Him My P7M8 or Most of the time G19. Why do you ask?
    Me: Just checking.
    I still would like to know whys hes not packing one of his 1911's.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck R. View Post
    Can you reference any study that proves conclusively that:

    1. Accurate “high-end” 1911’s are inherently un-reliable?
    2. People armed with “high-end” 1911’s are more likely to be KILLED in a gunfight due to taking excessive time to align their sights?
    3. Someone has been KILLED due to the increased time required to service multiple targets due to the heavier recoil of a .45 vs. a 9mm?

    That’s pretty much the points you’re attempting to make, aren’t they? I’m curious because I’ve never read anything on this, nor has it been mentioned in any of the training I’ve received. Based on the original question for the thread vs. your strong opinion I’m sure you’ve got some substantive documentation.

    IDPA, is a game plain and simple, I shoot it regularly, but it’s still not a great assessment of handgun effectiveness. The holes in the cardboard targets have the same “value” or effectiveness regardless of the caliber used; there is no minor Vs major caliber. So in effect, you’re right, any caliber over 9mm in IDPA is “overkill”, or above and beyond the minimum requirements to play the “game”.

    Chuck
    Last edited by Rob99VMI04; March 8th, 2007 at 12:27 PM.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

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