Cocked and Locked? - Page 2

Cocked and Locked?

This is a discussion on Cocked and Locked? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by cls12vg30 The method I use is to use the left thumb to depress the grip safety, right thumb securely on the hammer, ...

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Thread: Cocked and Locked?

  1. #16
    Member Array Deke45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cls12vg30
    The method I use is to use the left thumb to depress the grip safety, right thumb securely on the hammer, and right finger to depress the trigger. With the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, get a firm seat on the hammer with the right thumb, depress the grip safety with the left thumb, and depress the trigger with the trigger finger. Then slowly lower the hammer until you've passed the half-cock position. Then release the trigger and grip safety to engage the firing pin block, and gently lower the hammer to rest.
    I been packin' various 1911 style pistols for years, and MO is anyone who lowers a hammer on a live round by using the "one thumb" method is acting in an irresponsible and dangerous manner, and is an AD just waitin' to happen...I've witnessed it several times over the years!

    What I consider to be a safer alternative is to hold the gun strong hand in the normal firing grip, firmly grasp the hammer between the thumb and index finger of the weak hand, while applying slight rearward pressure on the hammer simultaneously pull the trigger and gently lower the hammer home. I just cringe when I see guys doing one thumb decocks...too much chance for a slip IMO.

    Now this is only if ya feel the need. Or...ya could just leave it cocked, locked, & ready to rock like God & John Browning intended!

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  2. #17
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    Alright guys, I just got home from work and am entering the fray a little late but let me give my two cents worth here as a strong advocate of 1911's and condition 1 carry.

    First of all cls12vg30, your method of cocking the hammer begs for an AD or at least a premature one, IF, and I say, IF during your draw and simultaneous cocking of the hammer, your trigger finger should stray into the trigger guard there is nothing, no thumb safety, no grip safety, which will prevent the gun from discharging. Even in the "Old west" the hammer wasn't cocked during the draw from the holster, it was cocked after the draw, once the muzzle had cleared the holster. To do otherwise is to have the muzzle catch on occasion on the top of the holster, then you fumble the draw, your finger catches the trigger trying to catch the gun from falling and "bang", we're having fun now.
    With a 1911 design when you draw in a firing grip, your thumb resides on top of the thumb safety and wipes it off once the muzzle has cleared the holster. I don't even wipe off the safety until my sights are on target and I'm ready to fire. It doesn't matter with the 1911 whether you wipe off the safety then pull the trigger or if you pull the trigger then wipe off the safety, it will fire either way. When I fire I do both at the same time, or at least with in a fraction of a second of each other.
    This firearm was designed to be carried in condition one and if you are untrained or uncomfortable with it that way then do indeed carry some other platform. The 1911 in the original format, without firing pin safeties or hammer blocks is very safe to carry in experienced, well-trained hands.
    I have been carrying 1911's for more years than I care to remember and have never had an incident carrying in "cocked and locked mode". (Even, after having recently had the gun fall from a shoulder holster and hit the ground).
    IMHO this is the finest designed handgun ever made for personal defense, and that isn't only my opinion, it has been echoed by virtually every defensive firearms expert who ever lived in modern times.
    Why do you think that almost every handgun competition extant uses 1911's?
    All USPA, IPSC shooting is performed with the 1911 because it is the fastest and best way to engage targets quickly.

    There are two quotes from two of the most famous handgun teachers alive today that I have posted before but I feel necessary to post again here.

    "The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair.Ē Jeff Cooper

    ďThe 1911 remains popular because itís an efficient tool. In more than 30 years of experience, Iíve met more competent, serious gunmen who carry 1911ís than those who pack any other handgun. They are professionals Ė policemen, government agents and others who carry handguns daily because the know their live may depend on itÖMe? Iíve carried a 1911 every single day for the past 20 years. Itís a very comforting gun to have at your hip. It offers a good, consistent single-action trigger pull and is wonderfully dependable. Because the 1911 is basically a defensive handgun, Iím not concerned about tight groups. I donít bother with expanding hollowpoints that could cause feeding problems. For absolute reliability, I shoot only high-quality ball ammunition. That big .45 slug doesnít have to expand to be effective.Ē Clint Smith.

    These are just a few of my personal opinions on "cocked and locked carry".

    Excuse me for going on a rant here.
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Tying to lower the hammer on a live round is more dangerous than carry cocked and locked...

    And about the decocker thing can they fail well sure likly hood of it happenng slim and none.

    I still point my gun in a safe area when i use decocker on say my Hk still safer to use the decocker like the gun was designed than to grab the hammer pull trigger and try to ease it down

  4. #19
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    Wow, maybe I should have stayed home instead of going to the hoohak lounge. I have seen many armorers have AD/ND with the lowering a hammer on a hot chamber. I have and will continue to carry Cond 1. I saw it happen on the local range here a week or so ago as well. Scared the bejesus out of this older gent. Thank god he was practicing muzzle disciplne and that the AD/ND went downrange.

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  5. #20
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    Thumbs up Half Cock Notch

    Well, Just to make you all feel better about the 1911 (in general) I once took an older Gubbermint Model before it was fit a new Commander rowel type hammer & new sear.
    Anyway, Here was the test:
    I installed a full power new mainspring in the mainspring housing & I "tested" the half cock notch by cocking the hammer almost to "full cock" and letting the half cock notch "catch" the hammer at least 500 times.
    This was done with a basic standard GI model & not a tuned pistol.
    There was no visible damage to either the sear or the notch though it did very slightly alter the "feel" of the normal trigger pull.
    Just to be safe I scrapped that hammer & sear.
    I've not ever done that test with the shallower Series 80 style notch but I'm sure that the folks at Colt probably did.
    I just did that test (I was bored) for the heck of it.
    I carry my own 1911 pistols fully cocked & locked.
    It should be good general information for you all to know that if you ever do need that half cock notch...It really DOES work & WILL catch the hammer every time on a PROPERLY FIT 1911 pistol.
    That is one of the reasons why you should always have a qualified 1911 gunsmith carefully check your pistol if you ever install any new hammer, sear, trigger, or other critical internal parts.
    BY THE WAY: I also believe that it is more dangerous to lower the hammer on a 1911 than to just leave it fully cocked & locked.
    Last edited by QKShooter; March 5th, 2005 at 11:44 AM.
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  6. #21
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    Unhappy 9mm Kurtz (short) = .380

    Quote Originally Posted by cls12vg30
    Bud, what exactly do you mean by a half-cock safety? My gun is technically not a 1911, it's a Llama .380, a Spanish copy of the Colt Govt. .380. It's about six months old, from the new Vitoria factory. It has a firing pin block that is always engaged unless the grip safety is pressed and the trigger is pulled, regardless of the position of the hammer. I have tested the block by pressing on the firing pin with a screwdriver, then working the trigger and grip safety to determine exactly how it worked.
    Okay now let's open another can o'worms. A .380?? My idol, COL Jeff Cooper the founder of GunSite and indeed considered the Father of American Pistolcraft, states fairly categorically that a 9mm is insufficient for self defense and I agree. Put it this way: If I shoot somebody with a .380 I also don't want to have to stand there all day and ARGUE with him! Or to put it another way: If you shoot somebody with a .380 AND IF he finds out about it....He's gonna be wery angwee! It's a mousegun caliber right at the top of the mousegun list: .22, .25, .32, .380! 9mm belongs there too, but I'll give bullet technology the edge and oh yeah the rule books for IPSC and IDPA which have the nine as a suitable major caliber. Notice that neither of the aforementioned groups allow competition with anything less than a .380 UNLESS it is in the special category of BUG (BackUp Gun) and those do not affect official match rankings. I think I'm going to start a new thread on this!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  7. #22
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    SIG Type Decocker

    Either point your pistol in a safe area or directly at the family Guinea Pig whenever decocking your SIG pistol.
    That being said I've never heard of a SIG decocker failing.

    EXSoldier ~ That IS a HOT can of worms! Be mighty careful of the ragged & sharp edges when you open that can of worms up!
    Last edited by QKShooter; March 5th, 2005 at 12:37 PM.
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  8. #23
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    Thumbs down Watch Out: CAT FRIENDLY ZONE AHEAD!@!!

    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    Either point your pistol in a safe area or directly at the family cat whenever decocking your SIG pistol.
    That being said I've never heard of a SIG decocker failing.
    Okay, you can't know that one of our FAMILY members, the 15 yr old cat died last week. We went out to dinner and came home to find her stiff and cold on the floor. Had her cremated and her ashes will go into my wifes casket when its her time. In fact all out pet CHILDREN will do the same. My wife is still EXTREMELY distraught. Sorry, I just don't think that was a funny comment. But neither am I angry at you. Not everybody looks at pets in the same way, we know that.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation Hey, Don't get ANGRY!

    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    EXSoldier ~ That IS a HOT can of worms! Be mighty careful of the ragged & sharp edges when you open that can of worms up!
    Just another forum topic. See the new thread on this. Don't get mad, okay?
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  10. #25
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    Exsoldier

    There...I changed it to Guinea Pig for you...since they are nothing but big rodents anyway.
    Meanwhile I have absolutely no way of knowing what exactly is going on inside anybody else's household.
    I am sorry to hear about the loss of your pet cat.
    I am a "dog" guy & have lost a couple of my 4 legged family members.
    One after 13.5 years so I know what you folks are going through.
    My condolences.
    As an Exsoldier I owe you plenty ~ The least I can do is erase my cat comment for you :unitedsta
    Last edited by QKShooter; March 5th, 2005 at 12:41 PM.
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  11. #26
    Member Array TAPS CCW's Avatar
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    cocked and locked

    First of all, it is more dangerous to lower the hammer down a loaded round than simply putting the safety on. The 1911 was designed to utilize the safeties. 1911 have two safeties one passive in the grip safety. The other is the thumb safety which engages (goes up) after the chamber is loaded. To lower the hammer on loaded round is firing the mechanism without it going bang (you hope).IT IS INHERENTLY DANGEROUS. As far as thumbing the hammer back on the draw or presentation. First of all your hand is not in a firing grip while drawing the pistol. You should always have your grip established with the pistol still in the holster. Don't give up the grip. What you are doing could get oyu killed if your thumb slips. If you are not comfortable carry another system. If you have a pistol with a decocking lever USE IT. It is designed to safely drop the hammer and completely blocks the firing pin. Yes I carry a 1911 and some people call me a dinosaur oh well! There are other great systems out there. If you want to carry a 1911 and don't like cocked and locked get a LDA or have Cylinder and Slide shop convert it to his safe system. You have to be comfortable with what you carry.
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  12. #27
    Member Array clipse's Avatar
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    For some reason I feel the need to chime in.

    I carry a 1911. I carry it cocked and locked. I think lowering a hammer on a loaded chamber is by far the most stupid thing you can do. Its not safe. If you loose your grip on the hammer then what? The hammer strikes the firing pin and firing pin ignites the primer. Sending a bullet to God knows where. Besides that, the slide comes back slamming into your hand leaving a mess.

    If you don't feel safe carrying a 1911 C&L then for Gods sake, please don't carry the gun. And what every you do, DO NOT LOWER A HAMMER ON A 1911 WITH A LOADED CHAMBER. If you do that you should have each one of your fingers smacked with an 8 oz. ball peen hammer. If that doesn't learn ya then nothin will. The 1911 was not designed to have the hammer lowered on a loaded chamber. If it was then there would be a decocker. Theres not.

    clipse

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cls12vg30
    Wow, didn't mean to start a war here.

    What you said about the Sig and DA/SA weapons is what I spoke of in my previous post about not completely trusting a decocker. As an example, the first pistol I ever bought was a CZ-52 in 7.62x25, a single-action firearm, but that has a decocker. It's also 52 years old. From the very beginning, I made it a practice to keep my thumb on the hammer and lower it gently, even when using the decocker. The same goes for my DA/SA Makarov with decocker. Sure the safeties and blocks are dependable and proven, but it doesn't take much extra effort to lower that hammer gently. Why not take that extra precaution, right?
    Preface to drive home some of what I'm not to say to avoid the "You hate cheap guns" routine: I own Makarovs, Tokarevs, a Zastava, a bunch of Eastern bloc pistol, and did have a CZ-52 for a time.

    That said, comparing the decockers on the Combloc guns to a Sig is insane. Flatly crazy. The CZ-52's decocker is notoriously unreliable to a point that it's considered good practice to stick a pencil down the bore when it's unloaded to make sure it actually works and doesn't launch the pencil downrange.

    On the Sigs (and similar modern guns with decockers), the firing pin safety is engaged when the decocker is used. You've disengaged it "lowering it gently" and there is no hammer stop ala 1911 if your finger does in fact slip.

    And as far as lowering the hammer on a 1911/Hi-Power/other single action auto, I've never seen the end of the world with it either. As another poster pointed out, anyone who handles single action revolvers will at some point put the hammer down on a loaded chamber. It's part and parcel of the firearm design. Bodies aren't flying in the streets from doing it.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    lol dang what did I start?

    Look people, here's my take on it: If I was to get a 1911 I would carry it cocked and locked because that's how it's supposed to work.

    I've seen the exploded view of a 1911 and it's a little bitty tiny pin that holds that hammer in place... I barely trust the tiny lugnuts on my tires to hold them on, and even then I check them!

    But in my mind that's cocking a gun and then putting a steel rod between the cocked hammer and the firing pin and saying that's okay. I don't think it is. That's my personal opinion.

    But you know what, cocked and locked is still the way to go if that's how your pistol works. But I don't care to mess with it at present. With more modern styles available it just seems unneccessary to go back and learn this methodology if you don't already know it.

    As for caliber wars... there's overall less effective calibers and overall more effective calibers. All calibers are effective, it's just that some are more effective than others.

    The FBI used .38 Special for about a century and it was fine, and they didn't have +P rated Speer Gold Dots either. For the time being I mess with .357, .38, and 9mm. They work. They're extremely easy to use and own. I can use the same boresnake and cleaning rods for all 3 of them. They give me access to all sorts of wonderful pistols I can consider trying. I think these 3 calibers are a sure winner.

    But even I have considered often selling my 9mm chambered pistol and converting to .38, .357, and either .40S&W or .45 ACP. I'm not married to 9x19 by any means.

    The reality is though I am ruled by my wallet. 9x19 is cheap. But .40S&W is getting cheaper all the time it seems. And with 9x19 I can actually practice with the same ammunition I'd use in a real fight 100% of the time. That's something .45 ACP and .40 S&W can't give me even if .40 is getting closer.

    And you know what one day I may go insane and buy a 1911 and discover it's the greatest thing ever. So who can really say?
    Last edited by Euclidean; March 5th, 2005 at 07:24 PM.

  15. #30
    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    ExSoldier762,

    I agree with Col. Cooper myself and follow his teachings. I also had a special .380 Colt Government customized for combat use. Sounds contradictary, doesn't it?

    Everyone has heard the "high speed needle vs, the slow speed brick" arguement, in fact, some magazines would go out of business if this debate was ever settled.

    "This is author Masaad Ayoob announcing the closing of 'Combat Handguns.' We have tested every 1911 ever produced in the world and exhumed every corpse. The truncated cone 9x23 (using 1987 R-P brass) Long-Slide won, we're sorry for all of the fuss, good night."

    The problem with theories is the cold light of reality. Turning the polished King bushing that Terry Tussey has so lovingly fitted to my custom .380 ACP barrel (Gold Dots to follow) is universally recognized as a deadly threat.

    In fact, .22s and .32s kill more people in this country than all calibres combined.

    I agree with you on one point, better calibre alternatives exist. I agree so much so that I bought a Glock 27 and I hate Glocks.

    But Jeff Cooper also states that having a gun with you is the first rule of gun fighting. Sometimes only my teeny Colt fits that bill.

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