Taurus DAO vs DA/SA??

[Griblik]

Hello all,
Fairly new to the group, but learning more with every thread I read. Question for ya'll - I just purchased a Taurus PT111 Millenium Pro, 9mm. Now, I've read about those being available in both Double Action Only and Double Action/Single Action. I have a rudimentary understanding of what that means, basically that DAO is a heavier trigger pull every pull, but DA/SA is a heavy first pull, lighter followup. (That's right, right??) But I'm curious as to how exactly the two systems work (only owned revolvers previously), pros & cons of both systems, etc, and how to tell for certain which I have. Have only had the chance to run a few rounds through it, and really couldn't tell for certain. Thanks for any info and opinions..!

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[PapaScout]

If the second character of the serial number is a 'Z' it's the third generation (latest) and it's DA/SA. BUT it's only Double Action if a restrike is needed (if you have a light strike and the round does not go off). Normal use puts it as Single Action.

DA just means that the first trigger pull cocks the hammer. After the first shot recoil cocks the hammer for the next shots as SA.

[Exodus]

First off: Welcome to the forum!

The trigger on a single action firearm only performs a single action: releasing a cocked trigger.

The trigger on a double action firearm performs two actions: it cocks and releases the hammer.

A DA/SA automatic can function in both modes depending on if the hammer is cocked or not. If the hammer is down, the first trigger pull will cock and release the hammer. The slide will cock the hammer (after the recoil of the first shot) and there after the gun will fire in SA mode.

A DAO firearm will always drop the hammer after each shot.

The trigger pull on a SA/DA will usually be 3-6 pounds on SA and 9-12 pounds on DA. To tell if your weapon is SA/DA, rack the slide (with the gun unloaded). If the hammer stays cocked, then it is SA. Drop the hammer safely. Pull the trigger. If it now cocks and fires, then you've got a DA/SA weapon.

A DAO usually will have a medium weight trigger pull (about 8 pounds).

The benefits are mostly personal. DAO gives you a consistent trigger pull. SA/DA gives you the safety of carrying with the hammer down, but fast follow-up shots after the initial shot. SA, gives a fast, consistent trigger pull, but requires a manual safety for safe carry (Cocked & Locked).

That's the basics. Always make sure that the weapon is unloaded prior to inspection, always point in a safe direction. Be sure to know and follow the four rules of firearms safety.

(The above trigger pulls are estimates and averages and based mostly on SWAG)

Good Luck, stay safe and have fun!

[JasoninSD]

Another quick way to tell if it is a SA/DA or DAO version is to look at the front sight. The SA/DA version of the PT111 will have a drift adjustable front sight. If it is a fixed front sight it is the DAO version. As for the pros and cons of the two, I prefer the DAO version. I grew up shooting double action revolvers and it just seems more natural to me. The SA/DA version is carried in a SA mode and only reverts to DA if it does not go bang when you pull the trigger. I am not convinced that this is the safest way to carry a pistol but your mileage may vary.

[Griblik]

OK, that definately gives me alot more information then I had, thanks all. In my admittedly inexperience opinion, I tend to side with JasoninSD in that that seems like it wouldn't be the safest way to carry - wish I could have a round in the chamber, but have the gun be uncocked, ready to be fired in DA. Am I being overly paranoid? Safe to carry cocked? It does have an external safety, and regardless I know the safety rules inside and out, but don't relish the thought of blowing a whole through the back of my leg one day because I was carrying a cocked firearm tucked in my waist.....

[cockedlocked01]

Well, I'm not sure how you'd make your Mil Pro DA if you have one in the chamber. So, you'd have to carry with out one in the chamber. Personally, I wouldn't do that. The point of carrying is SD. Hopefully you won't need to shoot, but if you did, you might not have enough time to chamber a round.

I have a Mil Pro PT145. I carry it loaded (SA), & have the safety on. When you practice drawing, have the safety on & always swipe it off as you draw (Just like on a 1911 type pistol). You'll be fine & have the advantage of a SA gun. Unfortunately, the Mil Pro have a long, unweighted pull, before you feel resistance. But it's a short pull after that, & it has a short re-set for follow-up shots.

BTW, welcome to the forum, too.

[jeep45238]

OK, that definately gives me alot more information then I had, thanks all. In my admittedly inexperience opinion, I tend to side with JasoninSD in that that seems like it wouldn't be the safest way to carry - wish I could have a round in the chamber, but have the gun be uncocked, ready to be fired in DA. Am I being overly paranoid? Safe to carry cocked? It does have an external safety, and regardless I know the safety rules inside and out, but don't relish the thought of blowing a whole through the back of my leg one day because I was carrying a cocked firearm tucked in my waist.....

Having your same gun in .40, yes, you're being overly paranoid.

The gun is NEVER cocked unless your finger is on the trigger and pulling it. DOA (all millenium pro's) cock the actiona and release it all in the same pull. With a double action(or da/sa as taurus calls their striker fired system), the movement of the slide cocks the action, meaning that you can have your fist shot in single action, or if you manually de-cock the gun your first shot will be in a long, heavy double action pull, and single action after that.

I carry with one in the pipe and a full mag, with a spare loaded mag. I used to carry with the safety on for a week or so. Then, the more I stopped to think about it, the more I realized there's no way in hell the gun will go off without my finger on the trigger (firing pin block, long heavy trigger pull, and double aciton only). I now carry with one in the pipe, full mag, spare loaded mag, and safety off.

If I had a single action, I'd keep the safety on.

[Smith&Wessonfan]

I now carry with one in the pipe, full mag, spare loaded mag, and safety off.

That's how any modern DAO or DA/SA pistol should be carried.

[cf2040]

Is there a way to decock the pistol?

[PapaScout]

Only by pulling the trigger.

[kle]

There should be a distinction between trigger function (double-action, single-action, double-action-only, double-action/single-action) and carry-condition (condition 1-4):

Trigger Function:
Single Action (SA): trigger only releases the firing mechanism.
Double Action (DA): trigger both cocks and releases the firing mechanism.
Double Action Only (DAO): Double Action, with no option for other methods of cocking the firing mechanism (i.e. can't thumb the hammer back, or the slide-action of semi-autos won't automatically cock the hammer)
Single Action Only (SAO): Single Action, with no option for the trigger to cock/release the firing mechanism (i.e. guns such as the 1911, Colt SAA, H&K P7, etc.)
Double Action/Single Action (DA/SA): for semi-autos, this means the first trigger pull will cock and release the hammer/striker (DA), and then the slide action will cock the hammer/striker for subsequent shots (SA). For revolvers, this means that the user may either work the trigger in double-action (DA), or cock the hammer before working the trigger (SA).

Then there's the "Glock Safe Action", where the slide only half-cocks the firing mechanism, and the trigger fully-cocks and releases it, and then the slide-action (recoil) re-half-cocks it (used in Glocks, S&W Sigma, etc.)

Carry Conditions:
These conditions have to do with whether the gun is loaded, whether the hammer/striker is cocked, whether the safety is on; basically, how readily can the gun be fired. Colonel Jeff Cooper enumerated these for the 1911, but they can be adapted and applied for other guns:

Condition 4: Chamber empty, no magazine.
Condition 3: Chamber empty.
Condition 2: A round chambered, hammer down.
Condition 1: A round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on ("Cocked and Locked").

These carry-conditions apply chiefly to the 1911, which is a Single Action (or SAO) gun. For DAO guns, not all of these conditions apply; for instance, my Keltec P11 is a DAO gun, which means I can't cock the hammer myself, nor can I work the slide to cock the hammer. It also doesn't have a manual safety, either, so Condition 1 does not apply. Revolvers, which usually don't have a manual safety, can't be put in Condition 1, either.

There are probably many variations on both the trigger action (i.e. Para Ordinance's "Light Double Action" and Sig's "DAK" guns) and carry conditions (some might say "Condition 0 -- round chambered, hammer back, safety off" is a valid carry condition, too), but I'm fairly certain that the ones explained above are the basics of each.

I hope I'm not coming off as condescending or preaching to the choir, and I hope I what I wrote is understandable =)

Welcome to the forum!

[cockedlocked01]

The problem with talking about last generation Taurus Mil Pros in SA/DA is that they're not like most guns.

The Glocks, XDs, Para Ordinance's LTA, & I think the DAK system, end up being DAO (The same trigger pull each time), but with lighter pull weights compared to traditional DAO guns.

The Mil Pros in question have a long, heavy trigger pull if you take the safety off & pull the trigger without chambering a round. Once you rack the slide &/or chamber a round, it's now in SA mode. There's no decocker, hence you'll always have a lighter pull weight with one in the chamber.

I suppose you can carry a chambered Mil Pro w/o the safety on, but I personally am not comfortable with that. I'm not sure why, because I have & do carry Glocks & the Mil Pro's SA trigger is light, but has a far longer travel than the Glock's.

Anyways, because of the Mil Pro's unique trigger action, it really can't be explained in the typical manner like "kle" explained.

If you use the safety, which is frame mounted (like a 1911 type gun), you should be fine.

[kle]

as to the other part of the OP's post (compare and contrast, etc):

I carry a DAO semi-auto pistol and a DA/SA snub-nosed revolver, and I own several firearms with most of the different types of cocking schemes. I like the DAO/DA-types for carry (I don't really notice the trigger pull as being too heavy), and I like the SA-types for target practice on the range.

Some would argue that because a gun is DAO or DA, it doesn't need a manual safety; I can see the reason for that--since the trigger pull is definitely heavier, snagging the trigger on something, or simply resting the finger on the trigger (while we're not practicing the Four Rules, shame on us) is less likely to result in negligent discharge, since it'll require more conscious thought and physical effort to work the trigger.

However, follow-up shots (if necessary) may be slower than DA/SA or SAO, since the user has to make that long, heavy trigger pull every time he wants to work the trigger. Shots fired in Double Action may also be less accurate, due to the longer, heavier trigger pull.

[jeep45238]

The problem with talking about last generation Taurus Mil Pros in SA/DA is that they're not like most guns.

The Glocks, XDs, Para Ordinance's LTA, & I think the DAK system, end up being DAO (The same trigger pull each time), but with lighter pull weights compared to traditional DAO guns.

The Mil Pros in question have a long, heavy trigger pull if you take the safety off & pull the trigger without chambering a round. Once you rack the slide &/or chamber a round, it's now in SA mode. There's no decocker, hence you'll always have a lighter pull weight with one in the chamber.

I suppose you can carry a chambered Mil Pro w/o the safety on, but I personally am not comfortable with that. I'm not sure why, because I have & do carry Glocks & the Mil Pro's SA trigger is light, but has a far longer travel than the Glock's.

Anyways, because of the Mil Pro's unique trigger action, it really can't be explained in the typical manner like "kle" explained.

If you use the safety, which is frame mounted (like a 1911 type gun), you should be fine.

I've yet to see a SA/DA Millenium Pro. I have seen SA/DA 24/7's, but never a Mill Pro. I don't trust Taurus's website, as they still have a 2nd gen Mill Pro picture on the website, saying it's a sa/da (it's not, I own one) and tons of errors throughout.

[Rotorflyr]

Some of the confusion with the current Taurus lines (24/7 and PTs) is also that they aren't DA/SA they are actually SA/DA (not sure if the entire PT line is SA/DA but the PT145 is)

The difference being a DA/SA (such as the H&K USP) will have a decocker, so that after you rack the slide you can drop the hammer and when you pull the trigger it will recock and release the hammer firing the gun (DA), if you don't use the decocker, the trigger simply releases the hammer (SA) and any DA/SA that has a hammer you could manually cock the hammer to bring it back to SA as well

The Taurus being an SA/DA does not have a decocker* and once the slide is racked the trigger can only be used SA. The DA portion comes into play should you have a misfire/light primer hit, the trigger can be pulled again to give you a second strike (or third, fourth, fifth if you choose) on the primer in hopes of setting it off.

IMHO, the problem with this is should the bullet fail to fire the first time, you're really better off racking the slide to eject it and put a fresh one in the chamber.

One other thing to mention is most "striker fired" guns aren't really DAO as the striker is partialy pre-cocked (% varies with model) and the trigger pull finishes loading the striker then releases it. The slide's recoil then partialy pre-cocks it again. This keeps a heavier trigger pull then an SA, but (typically) a lighter one then a traditional DAO, it also won't give you a re-strike ability (there may be exceptions to this) where as a true DAO you can pull the trigger over and over (even on an empty gun)



*Taurus just released or is releasing a version of the 24/7 that does have a decocker