Stuck between an apple and an orange...

This is a discussion on Stuck between an apple and an orange... within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Tom357 Then, here's some food for thought. You might consider a stainless SIG P226 or P229 in 357 SIG. You can get ...

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Thread: Stuck between an apple and an orange...

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Thumbs down NOISE LEVELS of .357 Sig

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom357
    Then, here's some food for thought. You might consider a stainless SIG P226 or P229 in 357 SIG. You can get a .40 barrel and the magazines can be used for either cartridge. It's stainless, like you want.

    Pros:
    .357 performance in a semiautomatic with less muzzle flash and noise, at the same cost as premium defensive 9mm and .40 loads.
    - .40 performance only requires a change of the barrel, not the springs.
    Cons:
    - Doesn't have the word "Extreme" in the name.
    - It has a rail.
    - Cost is at or near the top of your range.
    - It will outlast you.
    - It is a beautiful thing, and you might be distracted by its beauty.
    - It is too versatile.
    - It is too accurate.
    - It is too consistent.
    - It is too dependable.
    - It is too much fun to shoot.
    - It is too easy to carry.
    - You have to practice with a target load that is identical to your defensive load, so you'll be too good.
    - You have to buy something that has "SIG" in the name.

    I could go on, but it wouldn't be fair.
    I have to agree with all of this except on one single point:

    The .357 Sig is L-O-U-D and virtually guaranteed to produce permanent flinch the first time you fire it without serious hearing protectors. I can't even IMAGINE firing it in a tight space like inside a vehicle!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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  3. #17
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    Well, I have to agree with everything but one point, as well:

    It's not easy to carry (at least one me). I loved my P226 .40 and regret selling it. I would bet I have another some day, though.
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    I've shot the 396. It doesn't kick more than a mid-framed 357 with moderate loads.

    Compared to my 296, it's a .22. ;)

    And far be it from me to recommend anyone buy a Sig 226.

    No, they're bad. No, they're evil.

    No, I don't need to buy a third. No, not me.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Actually the 226 looks pretty good. My only knock against it is that it borderlines on that price range where I'd be scared to get it all scuffed up...

    I'll have to go look at one and see. Damn you all.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    I have to agree with all of this except on one single point:

    The .357 Sig is L-O-U-D and virtually guaranteed to produce permanent flinch the first time you fire it without serious hearing protectors. I can't even IMAGINE firing it in a tight space like inside a vehicle!
    Well, it does go BOOM marginally louder than target loads in other cartridges, but I think it is on par with hot defensive loads, such as +P+ loads in 9mm, .40, or .45. One good thing, though, is that if you practice with a 357 SIG, there is almost no difference between the way your practice loads behave and sound, versus your defensive loads, so I don't think the Flash/Bang is quite as unexpected. Frankly, I think that discharging any defensive load of any caliber inside a vehicle or other tight space is going to produce a deafening BOOM.

    As to fitness for carry, I'm 6'6" and 240 lbs. and I carry my 226ST, no problem, but I realize a full-size isn't for everyone. That's why I also suggested the 229, which is coming out in Stainless, this spring. The 229 is sweet, a little more compact, equally interchangeable between .357S and .40, and a little less expensive than the 226.

    Another alternative is to consider a SIG-certified reconditioned pistol. It may have a little character, but it is less expensive, comes with a SIG warranty, and you don't have to worry about getting it dinged up with daily carry.
    - Tom
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Actually I've figured out that with a good holster, it's not the length of the firearm that usually bothers me.

    Oh to be sure I do have a limit to what I can stand. I've gotten better at this actually in a very short amount of time having found a better carry position. But I've figured out that with even a decent holster, I can carry a fairly long gun. This actually doesn't surprise me as I'm wider at the shoulders than I am at the waist and I have something of a long torso; I just had to find the right position.

    I've been doing something at home; I'll open a book or whatever on a countertop and prop it up about eye level. I'll skim it while I practice drawing an unloaded (and triple checked) 686 from the crossdraw position. Not an elaboratel draw just out of the holster and into the ready position. I can actually do two things at once. I can't say I do this fasitidiously every single day becaue even I'm not that sad of a case, but I've figured out that the main problem I have is that the cylinder is so thick. The cylinder creates the drag. And when I walk around it's the cylinder that I feel rubbing agaisnt me. It's not the barrel at all nor the grip.

    The 686 is not a small gun lengthwise, but it is fairly thick. I've decided anything I carry needs to be 1.5" or less thick. The 226 looks like it's right at the mark though. I like the backstrap on it and it's an excellent gun and it has all the features I want but it might be just a tiny hair too thick for me.

    In any event I'd get a police trade in SIG I think. It would be ugly and not in my preferred finish but it'd already be scratched up for me.

  8. #22
    Member Array hawkeye680's Avatar
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    I probably missed if you said anything about this, so please don't flame if I did, but have you ever considered a 1911?

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    ...I like the backstrap on it and it's an excellent gun and it has all the features I want but it might be just a tiny hair too thick for me...
    The 226 is about 1/10" wider than the single-stack 220. The 229 might be a better fit, particularly if you are comparing to an XD.
    - Tom
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  10. #24
    Member Array Deke45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeye680
    I probably missed if you said anything about this, so please don't flame if I did, but have you ever considered a 1911?
    Now why didn't I think of that hawkeye680

    Kimber Ultra CDP Elite STS II

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  11. #25
    Member Array hawkeye680's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deke45
    Now why didn't I think of that hawkeye680
    LOL, I know, what ails you?

    Seriously Euc, I would suggest you go shoot one. Nothing feels as good or as natural as mine does to me. I realize that fit is truly a personal thing, but look at the number of people here who carry them. (Bumper, Nighthawk, Deke, etc.) I really love my Kimber Custom II with night sights- it is very tight, I have had zero problems with it (besides the barrel, Kimber got a bad batch and sent some out before they caught them, another story for another thread) and it is very accurate. My trigger is also pulling at about 3.5lbs, straight from the factory with no tinkering at all. I know you have some concerns over the external safety, but I believe that after you get some time with one they will go away. And, I got mine for $750.

    One more thing- I know you said that it would have to work out of the box with no customization, but even when you get the itch, you can find all sorts of drop-in parts for it. And like you said, everyone makes a holster, so that also helps.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    On the 1911

    Truth be told guys I could probably get over the whole cocked and locked thing with a little time. Yeah it's completely counterintuitive but so was Rolle's theorem and I figured that out.

    It's the reliance on an external safety that I'm truly afraid of more than anything. I forgot to turn it off once, and exactly once, on my P-89. I heard click when I wanted bang. Never before has that happened to me and I've had a firearm in some form or another since I was ten.

    That has spooked me something awful. I've sworn off any handgun with an external safety. I'm scared to death of a safety that might save me from myself.

    I told myself once if I ever accidentally leave one in the chamber, which is impossible if you clear it correctly, I'll give up semiautomatics altogether. No question, no reconsideration. I'll either do things safely or not at all.

    Ever since that click when I wanted bang experience my confidence in my own ability to turn off a safety is gone and I don't think it's ever coming back.

  13. #27
    Member Array hawkeye680's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    Truth be told guys I could probably get over the whole cocked and locked thing with a little time. Yeah it's completely counterintuitive but so was Rolle's theorem and I figured that out.

    It's the reliance on an external safety that I'm truly afraid of more than anything. I forgot to turn it off once, and exactly once, on my P-89. I heard click when I wanted bang. Never before has that happened to me and I've had a firearm in some form or another since I was ten.

    That has spooked me something awful. I've sworn off any handgun with an external safety. I'm scared to death of a safety that might save me from myself.

    I told myself once if I ever accidentally leave one in the chamber, which is impossible if you clear it correctly, I'll give up semiautomatics altogether. No question, no reconsideration. I'll either do things safely or not at all.

    Ever since that click when I wanted bang experience my confidence in my own ability to turn off a safety is gone and I don't think it's ever coming back.

    The only way you will ever get over that is to train, train, train, until it is something as innate as blinking. As a matter of fact, I think anyone could argue (somebody back me up please) that extensive training, which you should do anyway if you are taking on the awesome responsibility of carrying, would dispel any fears of the external safety. And as far as leaving one in the chamber, well, that is basic firearm safety.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    Euc?? did you ever think of a HK P7M8??
    NO external safety....cocking is done with a squeeze of the grip frame and de-cocking is done by releasing the squeeze cocker.......it could come with night sights....has about a 4 in BBL.......VERY compact.. you'll love it if you try one.......and you can disarm the weapon by taking out the firing pin Assy from the rear.put it down, leave it with a full mag in the weapon and loaded chamber.and kids can NEVER get it to work.by squeezing the grip, .no matter how hard they try. it will extract with a broken extractor, is unbelievably fast in it's cycling of ammunition. Has an American style mag release......
    Just food for thought.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    They cost would put the p7 out of what he wants to spend ime sure neat guns to expensive even used

  16. #30
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    Hi Bud
    Just a thought on my part for the P7.I know the factory re-finished and armoror reasted gun that are coming in from Germany might be a consideration.. there are some of the P7M8's that are coming thru for around 700.00 to 750.00

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