KelTec P-4T5 anyone?
This is a discussion on Concealed Carry and the .45 GAP within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well I see only one solution for now: Step 1: Buy this, KAHR PM45 Step 2 Forget about the GAP. There's a few small .45 ...
Well I see only one solution for now:
Buy this, KAHR PM45
Forget about the GAP. There's a few small .45 ACPs out there.
I don't know why everyone starts bringing up the 1911 when it comes to this. There are plenty of other guns chambered in .45ACP.
You have the Glock 36, the Glock 30, the Kahr Pm45 (above, and coming to a shop near you) the AMT backup .45, even though it's not a top choice it's still there.
Honestly I don't think that anything in .45 in a smaller than the above mentioned guns would work well overall.
But who knows.
.45 GAP. Another brilliant solution to a nonexistent problem.
I'm still trying to figure out why we needed .40 S&W.
"Happiness, is a warm gun" -St. John of Liverpool
Proud to be an infidel.
I find it interesting that everyone has an opinion about the 45 GAP, but very few have shot one.
I have a Glock 38 in 45 GAP and have been very impressed with its performance. My reasons for buying this particular handgun was based more on the gun than the round. I live in California, and as such, cannot purchase a gun with a mag capacity of more than 10 rounds. I refuse to carry a neutered magazine, so the field of choices starts to drop off quickly. As a carry gun, the 38/19/23 frame size is a good compromise of shootabillity and comfort. I like the ACP as much as the next guy, and cannot for the life of me understand why people have such contempt for shorter version of the same brass, holding the same bullet.
Yes, it costs more than I would like.
Yes, it is harder to find.
Yes, 45 recoil is 45 recoil......the gun cannot read the head stamp on the brass.
Its a good round, with un-developed potential in small short action handguns, and it may or may not die. But there is one thing I do know about the .45 GAP, I never want to get shot with one.
They should have called the round the .45 Glock Short, or the .45 Glock, or the .45 GP (Glock Pistol), or ANYTHING other than .45 GAP. The word GAP implies that something is missing.
Don't know if the round is dying or not. I know it's not widely available in my neck of the woods, but you can always order it from a gun shop or online. The New York State Police just adopted the Glock 37 in .45 GAP for their troopers in November 2006, so maybe it's just a slow starter.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the .45 GAP, but there are now good pistols with medium sized grips that accomodate the .45 ACP in higher capacities. Taurus 24/7 and Springfield XD come to mind. If you didn't know the Taurus 24/7 was a .45, you'd swear it was a 9mm or .40 from the grip size. Very comfortable! Same for the XD.
Glock now makes a Model 21 SF (Short frame) that has a reduced grip that may address the problem that some people have with the usual thick grip of double-stack .45 ACP pistols. It would be ironic if Glock actually put the last nail in the coffin of the .45 GAP by introducing the Model 21 SF!
Slow is smooth.....smooth is fast.
As for the GAP round, it would be great if it had the same proven balistics of the ACP, but in the price range of .22 or 9mm for ammo!
Other then that, I don't see the need for it, as the guns that have (for the most part) come out in this round aren't really that much smaller or lighter then their ACP counter-parts.
The difference in the minimum size that a pistol can be made in 45 GAP as opposed to 45ACP is too small to make the 45GAP worth messing with.
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
However, what I find even MORE "interesting" is that those who have shot them, and especially those who own them, fail to illiterate the singular advantage of them. This is namely, the fact that the .45GAP does not introduce the muzzle flip and twisting recoil inherent in the .45acp. The recoil is nearly 100% rearward in the full-sized frame and imposes no palpable twist.
I do not see the need for the .45GAP, nor do I care for Glock pistols generally. But, I must give credit where credit is due.
"Happiness, is a warm gun" -St. John of Liverpool
Proud to be an infidel.
You bring up a good point I'd failed to mention earlier about the recoil of the 45 GAP. In large framed guns, like most 45 ACP's, the recoil is controlled to a large extent by the size and weight of the gun. With a small gun, the recoil problem of the ACP becomes both a major accuracy problem and factor in how fast it's second/follow up shot ability is. Reduce the effects of recoil and you decrease the time needed to bring the gun back onto target after it's fired.
Again, I see the 45 GAP as an alternative to the 45 ACP, not a replacement. As I'd said earlier, the GAP round was designed from day one to work in smaller framed (9mm) pistols as opposed to the traditional, beefed up 45 ACP frame. I see the 45 GAP as filling a role similar to that of the 38 SPL compared to the 357 mag round... used in smaller, light weight guns (like S&W's "J" frame snubbies) where recoil control is a problem for many people, especially when using full power rounds. It's not so much a question of how many rounds will fit in a gun or the stopping power of one bullet over the other as much as it is being able to control the gun firing the round. The GAP round is more controlable (which also makes it more comfortable to shoot, which leads to less flinching) in smaller pistols than the ACP round for most people - at least according to those who have shot them - which ultimately makes for faster and more accurate follow-up during multi shot scenerios. You could probably get the same results from "down sizing" the 45 ACP with a lower power load, but then you'd essentially have the GAP round in an ACP case.
Last edited by rachilders; May 29th, 2007 at 01:47 PM.
"... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane
For all that's been said about the .45GAP, and all the talk about small concealable weapons...
The Glock Model 38 (.45GAP: 8+1) is so close in size to the Glock 36 (.45ACP: 6+1 unless you use the +1 floorplate like me) as to be considered the same size. SO, does ONE round make that much of a difference in your carry gun? I know it COULD, but do you REALLY insist on it?
If I can't hide my 1911 I carry my Glock 19 9mm. Sure, the size of the bullet hole matters, but I worry about shot placement more.
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I went to the Federal Ammo website and looked up the ballistics on their Hydrashok ammo in .45 GAP and .45 ACP, with 230 grain bullets in both cases. Here is what I found:
.45 GAP - 880 fps velocity, 395 ft-lb energy at the muzzle.
.45 ACP - 890 fps velocity, 405 ft-lb energy at the muzzle.
The two are virtually identical in every respect, firing the same bullet at the same velocity and energy. But the .45 GAP has a slightly shorter case length. And this was the whole point of its development, to allow use in pistols with smaller grip size in the barrel axis direction - grip width would still be the same, because bullet diameter is the same. The main user beneficiaries would be those with smaller hands, if they could buy a pistol designed around the .45 GAP case length.
As far as recoil goes, it depends primarily on bullet weight, bullet velocity and gun weight, for guns of a given design, such as a 1911. A .45 GAP 1911 and a .45 ACP 1911 would have the same felt recoil, if their barrel length and total weight were the same. So .45 GAP offers no real advantage in recoil.
I think the one advantage of the .45 GAP, that of shorter case length, is a fairly minor advantage and not enough to motivate most gun buyers to buy a new gun in .45 GAP and invest in the ammo, which costs more than .45 ACP. Those with small hands might do so, however.
I bought a new in the box SpringfieldXD in .45 G.A.P. for $400.00 out the door because I felt sorry for it. Just sitting on the dealer's shelf for months being completely ignored.
Now I have an off-beat caliber gun that is no longer cataloged. Very fun to shoot and carry. I have received my share of criticism because of the caliber. I just don't understand dislike and disdain for something as simple as a handgun caliber. At least it's not .41 Action Express!!!!! Ha Ha