Concealed Carry and the .45 GAP

This is a discussion on Concealed Carry and the .45 GAP within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; At more than one gun forum, I've seen the question asked, "What is the perfect CC pistol", and in my opinion, I hasn't been made ...

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Thread: Concealed Carry and the .45 GAP

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    Concealed Carry and the .45 GAP

    At more than one gun forum, I've seen the question asked, "What is the perfect CC pistol", and in my opinion, I hasn't been made yet. If I could get it; a K-T P-11/SKYY CPX style pistol in .45 GAP. The P-11/CPX are small, easily concealed pistols currently in 9mm. The .45 GAP was designed from the get-go as a round that delivers .45 ACP stopping power in a 9mm sized frame. Put the two together and I think SKYY or Kel-Tec would have a real winner on their hands! It would also be a chance for them to get ahead of the competition. Another option would be to offer a single stack model (like the new PF-9 from K-T or SKYY's proposed MPX-9) in .45 GAP. Talk about a pocket pistol with stopping power! Plus being in GAP, it would be controlable round in the small guns... a major drawback with the .45 ACP in small pistols!

    There has been a lot of talk about why the GAP round was even designed in the first place, but I think with the recent increase in states allowing concealed carry and interest in CC pistols, the GAP's time may have arrived. From the start, the .45 GAP was designed to give .45 ACP performance in a smaller, more managable package. My suggestion is that for someone who wants the stopping power of a .45 in an easy to conceal gun without the problems often associated with the .45 ACP and small framed pistols, the GAP would seem to be a good alternative. If someone at K-T or SKYY would take this ball and run with it, they just may come up with the perfect concealed carry pistol AND put to rest the question of why have the .45 GAP round.

    FWIW, I personally think SKYY makes a superior product compared to K-T (FYI, I own two CPX-1's and three K-T's - a PLR-16, PF-9 and P3AT - so I have some experience with both brands), with the SKYY having better fit, finish, and a smoother trigger with second strike ability the K-T's don't have. Since SKYY's MPX line seems to be in limbo, this could be the perfect chance for SKYY to jump ahead of it's competition and come out with a totally new product, rather than being the bridesmaid again. On the other hand, K-T could also jump on this idea and go with it. Nothing wrong with a little competition!

    What do you folks here think, am I on to something?
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    If the price on GAP ammo ever dropped to somewhat sane prices, I'd consider it.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

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    Questionable staying power of the new cartridge. It doesn't seem to becoming popular yet. also , Skyy pistols have a rep. of breaking.
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    I also like the idea of the .45 GAP, but the ammo is very expensive, and there aren't that many platforms offered in it. Maybe your idea would help it catch on?

    I think one problem is that .45 ACP users are, generally speaking, a traditional bunch, and see nothing wrong the ACP as it stands... Why pay more for a round that is functionally identical, in weapons that are more-or-less functionally identical as well?

    Another problem is that the .45 GAP is a relatively high pressure round, and it may not be possible/feasible to build a very small, very light, heavy-on-the-polymer handgun for the round...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    The reason I mentioned the .45 GAP vs. the .45 ACP is the GAP round was designed from the start to work in smaller framed, modern guns that currently shoot 9mm. On the other hand, the .45 ACP was designed to operate in the full size 1911 pistol using 1900 era powders and loads, which is why the .45 ACP has almost always proved to be a problem in small, modern pistols. Since current 9mm/40 S&W compacts are designed to shoot high pressure loads, they should have no problem handling the .45 GAP which was ALSO designed to use the same frame as current 9mm/40 S&W's.

    From the start, the .45 GAP was designed to give .45 ACP performance in a smaller, more managable package. My suggestion is that for someone who wants the stopping power of a .45 in an easy to conceal gun, without the problems often associated with the .45 ACP in small framed pistols, the GAP would seem to be a good alternative.

    Many people like the idea of having a .45 caliber round in their personal defense gun, but most of the .45's available today (virtually all in .45 ACP) are too large for most people to easily conceal or have too many problems with reliability and controlability. Despite it's size, there are a lot of folks who DO carry a full size .45, such as the 1911. However, there are a LOT MORE who'd prefer a .45 over the 9mm or 40 S&W if it was in a package that's more easily concealed and controlled. My idea was if you can put a managable .45 round/load in a gun the size of the P-11 or CPX, you'd have built the better mouse trap. Since the .45 GAP is already designed to fit into a 9mm/40 S&W size gun and has less recoil than either them or the .45 ACP, it seemed an obvious choice rather than design a new .45 ACP load or a new gun aound it.

    I mentioned the K-T and SKYY pistols because the CPX (SKYY) and P-11/PF-9 (K-T) already have a basic size and design I would consider workable. Rather than start from scratch, it would be much simpler to beef up a SKYY/K-T to handle the .45 load. In addition, the P-11/CPX are "wide body" guns with double stack magazines. It would be easy to fit the wider case of the .45 into the mag well of either since they already are designed to hold larger magazines, AND the length of the GAP case/bullet is the same as the 9mm round. In fact, K-T offered the P-11 in 40 S&W (the P-40) for several years, so it's possible to fit a larger round in a gun the size of the P-11 or CPX.

    Maybe I was just trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
    Last edited by rachilders; May 15th, 2007 at 05:17 PM.
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

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    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rachilders View Post
    Maybe I was just trying to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
    Well, that's how things evolve so we get better guns. Otherwise we'd still be using flintlocks or something.

    I like the idea of a comarably big and slow pistol round in a smaller package, but the only platforms that offer it also offer .45acp in the same size (or close to it). So, I think you're on to something that it could be a stellar performer in the smaller handguns.

    Still though, the biggest hurdle is that the ammunition is really expensive and because of the similiarity of platforms, not really seen as anything worthwhile when compared to the .45acp.

    If something good was done with it, I wouldn't be adverse to using it. I'm just not going to cash in to see it go the way of the dodo or the 10mm. Another great round that's more or less too expensive for me to shoot even with reloading.
    ...He suggested that "every American citizen" should own a rifle and train with it on firing ranges "at every courthouse." -Chesty Puller

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    The gap does nothing for me , no matter what formfactor they put it in . I dont mind the size of handgun required to wrap around the acp if i want to carry a big bore .
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    Senior Member Array DMan's Avatar
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    I am not sold on the performance of the .45 GAP. I shot one ONCE, and it just didn't feel the same, or as powerfull as the .45 ACP. Granted that is a gut feeling.

    I think saying that the the .45 GAP performs just like a .45 ACP is like saying a .357 Sig has the same performance as the .357 Mag (NOT!)
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    I have NO experience with the .45 GAP, but I'm curious about something - how can it deliver better performance (if measured in muzzle energy) then a 9mm or .40 S&W, or the same performance as the .45 ACP, and have less recoil? And if you are generating the same velocity for the same bullet weight, yet doing it in a smaller space, aren't you inreasing chamber pressures? Is this conducive to very small, very light platforms like the P-11?

    Forgive my ignorance, this just seems counterintuitive.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Excuse me for paraphrasing, I don't know how to make short quotes. You say that beefing up existing pistols built for 9mm and .40 would be easier than building a GAP round from scratch. I disagree. In some designs, this has proven to make reliability issues. Some .357 SIGs come to mind, also some of the earlier GlOCKS. You keep mentioning that the 45 GAP is a more manageable version of the 45 ACP. If the GAP so close to ACP, how could it be easier shooting? One last issue, I know there would be a market for them, but I wouldn't want to shoot a kel-tec sized 45.
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    Go smaller, higher pressure, high recoil, and expensive ammo and you won't shoot enough and be proficient.
    Learn how to conceal a .45acp.

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    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    Before we get any farther into this discussion, I want to clarify a few things.

    First, this is strictly a mental exercise on the possibility of putting a large caliber round (the .45) in a small, easy to conceal pistol (like the P-11) that is reliable, practical and affordable.

    Second, the .45 ACP round has been around for almost a century and so far, I haven't seen many small and reliable pistols offered in .45 ACP. That was why I suggested the .45 GAP as an alternative. I'm also NOT suggesting the GAP round should replace the .45 ACP (so don't all you ACP fans get your panties in an uproar). If someone can design a small, managable P-11 size pistol that can reliably handle the .45 ACP round without beating it's shooter to death after a dozen or so rounds, more power to them. As for the cost of .45 GAP ammo vs. 45 ACP, when it comes to defensive ammunition, that is not a real consideration since good personal defense ammo in .45 ACP is as expensive as the GAP rounds. Granted, reloads and generic ball ammo is cheaper in ACP, but if ammo cost is my only consideration, I'll stick with 9mm since it's cheaper than anything besides .22LR.

    Third, I don't own any weapons chambered in .45 GAP and haven't done any personal testing of the round. Any information I've posted is info I've found at other sources, like gun/ammo reviews either online or in gun magazines. I'm only repeating stats I've read elswhere, so don't ask me about the specifics of how or why something does or doesn't work.

    Finally, there are many of us who for any number of reasons either will not or can not carry a large pistol like the 1911, but would still like it's stopping power. Finding a way to have our cake and eat it to, so to speak, is what this whole discussion is all about. K-T has already produced it's P-11 in both 9mm and 40 S&W. If they (or someone else) could build a similar pistol in .45 GAP or ACP, it could become to .45 fans what the P-3AT is to .380 shooters... a gun you may shoot a little, but carry a lot.
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    Honestly, I will never buy the GAP as long as there is any other caliber 9mm or above to pick from.

    It was an answer to a question that nobody asked. The round is not a large improvement over .40 S&W or .357 Sig and attempts to fill the same market segment. Most of those that insist on the .45 diameter are hooked on the 1911 pistol and aren't going to change. Going to a modern pistol usually means a change to 9mm, .40, or .357.

    All of that said, I do not believe that a P11 sized pistol is the ideal size for CCW. I will not carry smaller than Glock 23 or Sig 229. I prefer a Glock 22 or Sig 226. The only time I will carry something smaller is if there is just no other option.
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    I've fired .45 GAP before out of whatever model GLOCK is chambered for it. The recoil really wasn't all that more manageable than the ACP, in my opinion. Kahr Arms, Taurus, Kimber, Para Ordnance.. I could go on, they ALL make very concealable weapons chambered in .45 ACP, and if you really put some thought into it... All of these small weapons are ABOUT the same size! And even though my Kahr and the Taurus PT-145 I had are pretty damn small considerably, they aren't THAT much smaller than most full size pistols. I don't see the point in making yet another "compact" pistol chambered in .45 GAP where theres already so much out there. I'm sure the marketing departments are singing the same tune.

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    Post Hummmmmmmmm

    I think the .45 GAP has some true potential IF --- IF somebody would build an ultra high quality dimunitive semi~auto pistol around it. I mean a really tight tiny lightweight big bore as compact as is humanly possible.

    I would like to see Rohrbaugh build a pistol from the ground up around the .45 GAP.
    That would be a pretty doggone spectacular pocket pistol that I could find a real use for.
    Sort of like a semi-auto Semmerling but, w/ better styling and as small as possible.

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