Witness...Cocked & Locked carry safe?

This is a discussion on Witness...Cocked & Locked carry safe? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I just purchased a new Witness 10mm and was wondering if it needs to be carried hammer down for DA for first shot, or is ...

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Thread: Witness...Cocked & Locked carry safe?

  1. #1
    Member Array Rbrown777's Avatar
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    Question Witness...Cocked & Locked carry safe?

    I just purchased a new Witness 10mm and was wondering if it needs to be carried hammer down for DA for first shot, or is it safe as the 1911 for cocked and locked carry?

    Going to the range Sunday to start real orientation on this piece, but it sure "feels" good so far!

    Also ...anyone know if the "Buffalo" rounds are too hot for this weapon, as EAA says no +P for it.

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  3. #2
    Member Array General Geoff's Avatar
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    Buffalo ammunition is loaded to maximum or near-maximum SAAMI pressure standards. It is not "+P" ammunition in the strictest sense, unless it is actually labelled "+P." The weapon should be able to handle it without issues, though how robustly designed the Witness pistols are, I do not know.
    Discretion is the better part of valour; and a virtue beyond reproach.
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    C&L is ok with this gun....in fact, that would be my preferred mode of carry as you'd have the pull the trigger (on a chambered round) while holding the hammer and then ever-so-gingerly ease the hammer down....can't say I like doing that with a Witness or any CZ-75 variant/clone.

    The Witness line are undersprung in my humble opinion. The 10mm full-size models have a 14 Lbs spring....I'd, at a minimum, invest in Wolff extra power spring (starting with their 18 Lbs. spring as a start, or go for gusto and get a 20 Lbs. spring) to protect the gun from the extra buffeting it will be subjected to if you fire Buffalo Bore or Double Tap Ammo rounds.

    I had a Sprinco Recoil Reducer and 18 Lbs. spring in my traded-away Witness 10mm. The combo made a heck of difference in perceived recoil and recovery.

    Wolff: http://www.gunsprings.com/SemiAuto/EAANF.html
    Sprinco: http://www.sprinco.com/recoil.html
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    Member Array antgriff's Avatar
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    I althought carrying C&L is better (quicker) for a self defensive situation. I think for legal reasons if you everhave to use it. The lawyers will have a field day with you carrying this DA capable pistol in the C&L manner. I do not know the trigger pull weight of the pistol, but I would imagine that is no more than a Beretta 96F and I would carry it in DA mode for first shot. If you want to carry SA C&L buy a version that is desgined for it.

    2 cents.

    antgriff
    Things happen, but the only thing that matters at the end of the day is what you do during and after in order to survive.

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    I don't own a Witness, but I keep looking at a .38 Super. I have handled them quite a bit and I think the only sensible way to carry it is cocked and locked. While antgriff is entitled to his opinion I think he is wrong. Since the Witness has no decocker any lawyer who suggests that the hammer be down would be eaten alive by any competent attorney. The idea of risking a discharge every time you loaded the pistol is crazy.

    I have wondered why the Witness is SA/DA in the first place. If you look in the owner's manual you find that it says the safety can be engaged with the hammer cocked or uncocked and the chamber filled or empty.
    The safety may
    be operated with the hammer cocked (fully back) or
    not cocked (all the way down) or in the resting position
    (about half way between fully cocked and not cocked)
    and with the pistol loaded or unloaded.
    It also says never let the hammer down on a chambered round.
    Lowering The Hammer:
    W A R N I N G !
    Make sure the pistol is unloaded (see Unloading
    Instructions) and pointed in a safe direction!
    It really doesn't make sense to have the DA capability if there is no decocker on the pistol since there is no way to use the DA capability without violating the safety instructions in the manual. It seems to me that the thing for EAA to do would be to either remove the DA ability or add a decocker. That is just my opinion.
    George

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    Member Array raytracer's Avatar
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    My take is that the CZ / Tanfoglio pistols are more rightly considered SA/DA instead of DA/SA. For example, a Sig P-229 is designed to be charged, and then decocked with the internal mechanism for carry so that the first shot is DA and subsequent shots are SA.

    The CZ / Tan are single action, with a DA restrike capability. In other words, operated just like a traditional SA but with the ability to try again on a light primer strike.

    Then you have the HK variant 1 which combines both systems.

    When I carry my CZ, I carry it Condition 1. At this point, since I mostly only carry 1911 platform guns, I don't carry anything that isn't cocked and lock and "down for off" so as not to confuse my feeble little brain.

    Joe

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    VIP Member Array artz's Avatar
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    The main reason that I never bought a witness in 10mm was the no +p rule.
    George...I used to carry out in cali, a sistema in 9x23 which I converted to 38 super with the help of a stronger recoil spring. Like a dummy, I got greedy and sold the gun for twice the amount of what I had in it but it was quite a shooter and soooo smooth....
    " Refuse to be a victim, make sure there is a round chambered ! "

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    Very Good Post dr_cmg You make an excellent point partaining to the nomenclature and manual of arms for the Witness....

    Carrying it Cocked & Locked should be easily defendable in court. Plus, it is just plain the safest way to carry it!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #9
    Member Array Rbrown777's Avatar
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    I just returned from the range for my initial session with my new Witness 10mm. I am surprized as to how manageble this weapon is, I was expecting more felt recoil. Granted, I was not using some of the hotter loads available, but every enjoyable to shoot.

    No malfuntions in 400 rounds. I may have found a new carry!

    Thanks for all the information...especially the recoil and spring set recomendations...I will likely pursue that.

  11. #10
    Member Array antgriff's Avatar
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    I believe I am confused. This post started out as though the pistol was able to be carried with the hammer down. I did not research the pistol before my last post. But after dr_cmg's post and looking in the online manual, it looks like the pistol is designed for C&L use. So I would see no problem using the pistol in that manner. Although, I do not understand why the online manual repeatedly says not to rely on the saftey in many diferent ways. That is probably jsut them being extra safe with their safety rules.
    Things happen, but the only thing that matters at the end of the day is what you do during and after in order to survive.

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    VIP Member Array swiftyjuan's Avatar
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    I have carried a Witness (actually a Tanfoglio, pre-witness) and own one of their limited edition guns. Both guns are outstanding, and I carry cocked-and-locked with no fears. Just like the 1911...
    John
    Assault is a behavior, not a device.

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    Lifetime NRA member

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    As far as lawyers go, any question about cocked and locked, hammer down, or anything else is probably not something you're going to have to worry about. I've done quite a bit or research and have never seen it become an issue. In all honesty, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it was never mentioned anywhere. If he wants to have a field day with you, he will try to make the fact that you had a gun apper that it means you were out looking to shoot someone. Whether it is cocked and locked or uncocked and unlocked is the least of your worries.
    "The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
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    Senior Member Array incredipete's Avatar
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    If they decide to prosecute you for a self defense shoot, I doubt very much they'll base their case on whether or not you were C&L. More likely, they think they can show it wasn't a justified use of force. If they believe it was justified, then C&L doesn't matter one bit.
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  15. #14
    Senior Member Array Al Lowe's Avatar
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    Do they make a 10mm +P round? I've never seen one. Then again, considering what the 10mm can be loaded to, I don't think I'd want to see one either.

    As for EAA's "No +P" rule, I think that's more of a liability thing than anything else. When I carry mine, it's cocked and locked.

  16. #15
    Member Array Rbrown777's Avatar
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    With the Buffalo rounds dishing out 740 ft/lbs. of energy with "normal' chamber pressures...who needs +P anyway?

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