Taming the Glock

This is a discussion on Taming the Glock within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Okay Monty suggested it so here it is. I thought this was a good subject. See a Glock is one of those things that a ...

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Thread: Taming the Glock

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Taming the Glock

    Okay Monty suggested it so here it is. I thought this was a good subject.

    See a Glock is one of those things that a lot of people hate but ultimately everyone respects. Even the most hardcore traditionalist who hates the fantastic plastic pistol with a passion can't deny its advantages.

    Indeed the main criticism non Glockers seem to have is ergonomics. Here's the problems I know of:

    #1. Some people just don't like any pistol without an external safety.

    #2. Some people consider it too bulky. It does have a bit of a "Brick" feeling.

    #3. Some find the grip angle unnatural.

    #4. Related to #3, a lot of people find it points "funny". This is my main criticism.

    No person I know who has been into any form of shooting for longer than a few months has any "deep" criticism of the piece. It's a fantastic product. Problems #1 and #2 really aren't "problems" at all. The preference for a safety feature or what constitutes a gun that is too thick, etc. varies from person to person. What we're left with is essentially a superficial set of criticisms, such as the unattractive appearance.

    However that too is subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Therefore the most valid criticism of the Glock pistol is its ergonomics.

    This too may appear to be a shallow criticism, especially to an avid Glock enthusiast, because it too is subjective. After all, isn't the manual of arms, quality of construction, low price point, and legendary toughness of a Glock pistol worth a little bit of discomfort?

    This is where I say no. I sincerely believe that if not for the ever expanding market, we'd all be making do with Glock pistols, but there is an ever expanding market. I feel one is simply better off compromising somewhat and getting a platform that's similar but just fits better. There's more than one polymer pistol on the market, and more importantly there's more than one good polymer pistol on said market. I feel for the most part you're probably better off simply buying another product.

    On the other hand, I have to admit I wished Glock products "worked" for me. The Glock pistol is actually wonderful in its diversity of frame sizes and calibers. I can see how it would be beneficial to have a collection of handguns that would cover any situation from shooting a steel plate through concealed carry applications that all had the same manual of arms. Indeed, someone who likes Glocks as they are would be behooved to have nothing but Glocks just as a mechanic who likes Snap On tools would do well to have nothing but Snap On tools.

    Other benefits are that it is common, so holsters and other accessories are easy to come by. A third benefit I see is the interchangability of the different size magazines between certain models. I can't point to two of my pistols and say that I can use the same magazines in both, and the thought of a compact pistol with a full size grip via a full size magazine with a grip extender appeals to me.

    Thus we see the discriminating customer can be put in that awkward position where some kind of compromise is needed. The first route, and the one most taken in all likelihood, is simply buy something else that just has more ergonomic appeal and live with the fact it's not as common or as easy to accessorize, and you may very well have to live with the price point too in some cases.

    The second route, the one that baffles me, would be to "correct" the Glock pistol. Now how to do this is without extensive custom gunsmithing is beyond me. In all honesty, I feel if it's not a reasonably priced fix, it's not a fix at all and you were better off with option 1 in the first place.

    The crux of the matter deals with the grip and the way it points. I think the grip can be corrected rather easily. I have heard of tube sleeve grips for the Glock pistols that provide a layer of "padding" that don't make the grip angle seem so odd. I've even read of people making sleeve grips for Glocks out of bicycle inner tubes. The extra layer of rubber gives a soft, tacky feel that cushions the hand somewhat apparently.

    Now for what it's worth, the full size Glock pistols are the ones I find unbearable. I do have good sized mitts. Something about the longer slide just seems to accentuate the problem. I find the shorter Glocks tend not to be so bad, but still exhibit the problem.

    The part that's beyond me to fix is the way it points. You can't fix that without refabricating the whole gun practically.

    The thought occurs to me however that it may be possible to perhaps make the correction one must make more intuitive. One must tilt their hand forward a little bit to make the pistol point correctly. I submit that it may be possible for aftermarket sights to solve this dilemma. Heinie Straight Eights come to mind because of the way these sights require one to align the two halves of the "8", and they are easier to see than the factory sights as well.



    This may just be my personal opinion, but these sights seem to make it more obvious when you have the gun pointed correctly. My tendency with the usual 3 dot type sight is to worry about the horizontal axis, but these sights look like they stress the vertical axis more. In fact Heinie even claims their sights work on the principle you can correct vertically faster than you can horizontally.

    Even at that, this "fix", if it even works, costs slightly over $200. Is this in fact a price worth paying?

    Another thing I wonder is if anyone has tried some simple or not so simple point shooting with a Glock. Does the grip angle tend to set you off too much? There's no point in trying to correct the natural inclination to point the wrong direction with a set of sights if you still miss at "social distances". A lot of situations happen where using the sights is considered impractical.

    I figure my idea looks good on paper but isn't really a solution.

    It's just a situation with no good answer, short of Glock launcing a second line of products with different ergonomics and the odds of that happening are slim.

    I conclude that it's best just to go with a competitor's product and not worry about it, but still it's fun to speculate.

    However, for the prepared American, it would be beneficial to know how to use a sidearm that's in such common circulation even if you don't "like" it. You may have to borrow one day in a hurry.

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    Member Array AZG23's Avatar
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    Euc...pretty good post...


    I am glad that Glocks work for me...I've got 4...and no other handguns. For the longest time I carried a G23 .40..and had a G27 sub for even better concealment. But I happened upon the G30 as I wanted a .45 and didnt want to stray too far from what I think is the perfect gun. Ive tried several different Sigs, Smiths, Berettas, H&K's, Walthers, 1911's and the Glock just WORKS for me. And to have NEVER had a failure of any kind in ANY of them is all the better....

    As an added point for the Glock...I find it to sit the lowest in your hand of any autoloader....low bore axis...this to me helps alot in the way the pistol points/shoots.

    As stated in the other thread...I find the large frame guns to point odd for me..something about hoe the curvature of the lower grip hits the palm of my hand.
    Brad B.

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    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    Don't own a Glock but might(would) if they came out with a mid-size(like a 23),single stack,in 10mm. To me, that would be a great little CCW tool. I have friends that have most all models and I have shot them at the range. I suspect that it's just me ----BUT---- they feel funny. When I first grab hold of one the first thing that I want to do is laugh. Not outta disrespect for the firearm. Don't ya'll agree---there's just something funny 'bout a Glock ?? -----

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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Again ill state almost everything will work for me i can switch from my G17 to Hk usp springfield Xd and 1911's and even my ruger with no problems...

    Maybe becuse i started shooting with revolvers with the different grip angle is why i dotn have a problem switching guns then again maybe im just luckly that way.


    My first impression of the glock was it shot low for me same as every pistol when i first buy them ...300 rounds later shooting dead on . The low bore line is good for recoil and makes gun sit lower in the hand..

    The 3Rd gen of glock frams had the finger grooves and makes it for me easyer to shoot than 2nd gen frames..

    Now as to my glock 36 i think it was a couple things why it didnt work for me the finger grooves didnt sit just right and i dont know why i could get decent group with it think it was the gun it was used after all..

    For me i have to go full size or frames dont seem to fit me i think the smaller compact or subcompact will fit and shoot better for those who feel awkard with the fullsize..

    Im still willing to try a G20 Somewhere down the road.

    The more pratice i think you have with it the less awkard it will feel then you can switch up to keep up with your other guns at least i do

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    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    Euc
    I've had a "few" of the differnt models, particularly because I DO love the reliability of the weapon, and the fact of the hi cap mags it has. On the other hand, I'm turned off due to the design agnle of the grip frames. I've had a 33 and 23 that had Trigicons on them. I found them to sight the same as a standard sight Glock. I also reciently tried a 23 with Heinie night sights. It pointed slightly better than stock sights, but not much better. I DID have the ability to test fire the gun, mainly due to the idea of my purchasing it for the Heinies on it. It was a Gen 2 frame. It shot a bit better but not enough for me to purchase it. It might be better with a Gen 3 frame. I'm also stuck in the constant demieia of the perfect pistol idea. I like the reliability of the Glock. I'm safe with the idea of no external safety (as I own HK P7's) The "brick" feeling is normal for most people, as the 30's 29's are a bit hefty. The price to pay for reliability. I also feel the old workhorse of the 1911 types might fit the bill as well. The Taurus Pt's in 45 cals with Poly frames seem to be a good choice as well. When it come right down to it, First: you need to make a decision based on reliability, and how ergonoimcal it is in your hands, price is second, and thirdly and most important, what you're willing to conceide to, in order to have all the first two qualities
    Last edited by CLASS3NH; May 16th, 2005 at 10:33 PM.

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    JT
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    I have never understood complaints about Glock’s ergonomics. To me it is the most natural pointing handgun. And I started out shooting a 1911. It comes down to individual preference and what you spend your time training with. If a Glock doesn’t feel right to you, get an XD for your polymer shooting needs.
    Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CLASS3NH
    I've had a 33 and 23 that had Trigicons on them. I found them to sight the same as a standard sight Glock. I also reciently tried a 23 with Heinie night sights. It pointed slightly better than stock sights, but not much better. I DID have the ability to test fire the gun, mainly due to the idea of my purchasing it for the Heinies on it. It was a Gen 2 frame. It shot a bit better but not enough for me to purchase it. It might be better with a Gen 3 frame.
    That's what I figured. My "fix" really isn't a "fix" at all but it does seem to help a little. But if you were going to pay $175 for new sights, you could have just bought a SIG in the first place and avoided all that silliness.

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    Member Array SGeringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    :

    #1. Some people just don't like any pistol without an external safety.

    #2. Some people consider it too bulky. It does have a bit of a "Brick" feeling.

    #3. Some find the grip angle unnatural.

    #4. Related to #3, a lot of people find it points "funny". This is my main criticism.
    Well I'll admit, I resisted the GLOCK for a long time. I did, and to this day, prefer SIG pistols. I feel that the P226 is still the finest combat/defensive handgun to this day. But the GLOCK compact frame was what my g/f wanted, and I wanted matching pistols. So I took delivery of two G23s, confident in their reputation and objective quality anyway, even though I wasn't 100% sold on them.

    I can report that though I still prefer SIGs, I'm sold. The GLOCK deserves every bit of it's realistic reputation. Let me address the points above. For #1, while I hate to belittle people's opinions, I think this is a horrible reason to dislike a weapon. You should judge a weapon's capabilities on it's ACTUAL objective capabilities and service history, not whether or not the presence or absence of a feature makes you "feel better". A vast quantity of GLOCK weapons are in circulation in gov't and private hands, and with few exceptions any problems the weapon had w/ NDs related to the absence of IQ points, not a mechanical feature. The safety features the GLOCK does have coupled with a competent operator and good holster will make it accidentproof virtually.

    For #2, while it certainly APPEARS chunky, I've found the GLOCK to be lighter and more concealable and overall trimmer then most of it's competitors, yet it the .40 G23 takes one MORE round then the bigger SIG P226/P229. The GLOCK is also lighter and more concealable even then my SIG Pro, despite having a longer barrel. For their size, the GLOCK line boasts remarkable capacity and ballistic performance.

    #3. Subjective. I dont find it unnatural.
    #4. See above.

    :P
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    Member Array Fjolnirsson's Avatar
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    Hmm. I guess I have an unusual point of view on the ergonomics of Glocks. See, I learned on one, so I'm corrupted forever.
    Speaking of ergonomics and a "fix", I recently heard of this:Robar
    They shave down the grip.
    Personally, I love my Glocks. I think they point very naturally. I find them asthetically pleasing, as a "tool". I do, however, yearn for "prettier" guns. I'd just about kill for a Browning Hi Power. At this time, Glocks are what fit into my budget, since I already own them.
    I agree that everyone should learn to shoot them, for the reasons you gave.
    The fact remains, some folks just don't care for them. S'ok, it leaves more for me!
    "Water can flow, or it can crash. Be like water, my friend."-Bruce Lee

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    Former Member Array The Tourist's Avatar
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    I'm also one of the guys who use the Glock, but can't find anything to really get passionate about. It's a utilitarian piece of ordnance. A vanilla sqirt gun. It's about as exciting as a lip-lock from my Corsican cousin, Rosa.

    I'm holding my Glock 27 right now. The only ergonomic feature on the thing was something I added--that being a Glock 23 magazine and a grip extender. It gives the grip a more arched rear back-strap.

    The sights on mine are stock, and for my intended use they are just fine. They are the standard 'ball in the bucket' style, and while they are coarse for target work, they get the job done for CQC situations.

    If the same size and feel could be obtained by their 10mm Auto version, I might try that route. I've been reloading that cartridge for almost 20 years, and I can even assemble hunting loads for medium sized game.

    But the Glock 27 is just the size that fits my life, I don't care about the pistol. I'm sure it will digest any load for its entire lifetime and serve my illegitimate grandchildren very well when they track me down.

    It's a tire iron, a mid sized screw driver, an oven mitt, a door stop, dry wool socks, exact change, blister ointment or a chocolate laxative. None of these things are truly sought after, but take on value in certain situations and appreciated for the service they provide. Dropped unceremoniously at the end of the routine chore.

    Hail the Glock 27, dry underwear of the ballistic world.

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    Member Array AZG23's Avatar
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    Hahahahaha.....
    Brad B.

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    Indeed the main criticism non Glockers seem to have is ergonomics. Here's the problems I know of:

    #1. Some people just don't like any pistol without an external safety.

    #2. Some people consider it too bulky. It does have a bit of a "Brick" feeling.

    #3. Some find the grip angle unnatural.

    #4. Related to #3, a lot of people find it points "funny". This is my main criticism.
    Add #5. Some people don't like the trigger, even with the 'match' disconnector and trigger job.

    Compared to my other similarly-priced combat handguns, my G17 is the red-headed stepchild among outstanding triggers. My HP puts it to shame, so does my budget 1911, and I won't mention my Sigs.

    If you don't like the trigger, there's really nothing you can do to change the gun realistically. If you don't like the trigger and the grip and the other factors, it's probably not the gun for you.

    I can say that about any gun as well as the Glock, but the fact is that there just aren't replacement parts and options on the same level as for other major SA or SA/DA or DAO autos.

    Another thing I wonder is if anyone has tried some simple or not so simple point shooting with a Glock. Does the grip angle tend to set you off too much?
    Point shooting I'm consistently higher than my HP, 1911s, Sigs, and S&Ws. I'm that way with my Luger too, though - it's the grip angle and way oversized hands compared to the norm.

    Where the Glock fails for me is in that area: if I can't point shoot it as well as my other couple safes full of handguns, it's a range toy.

    For combat pistol shooting to 10m, I'll hit what I need with it. Past that, I don't have faith in the gun like I do in my Sigs. I hope to never acquire the faith in another gun like I do with my Sigs, as it says a very bad day has just happened.

    I largely own a Gen1 17 simply because my 9mm collection required it more than anything else, and to use it to teach the 4H kids with. I don't have a joy of ownership or a joy in craftsmanship, or any of the rest of it. It'll work, I'm sure. I just have tools I'd rather pick up, and the budget to do so.
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

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    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    Guys
    I do not claim to be a "gun guru" by any means, but please understand that I have had about 350 handguns in my time as a CCW owner, and a FFL. I've bought many of the same models over and over again, including but not limited to the following: S&W 59, 469, 60, 59, 39 etc etc, H&K's, Colts autos, and revolvers, (and a LOT the 1911 series types) Walthers of all flavors, Taurus, Para, GLOCKS, Sigs etc etc. MANY because they "just felt good in my hands" and they performed well, yet trades and searching for the "perfect handgun to carry" was always my method of madness.
    So not to be long-winded here, but just trying to give you my opinion and how they feel in my hands, I've kept plenty of them, and also traded, sold many. The FFL part has seen many buyers for specific weapons, based on popularity, and yes, based on "old workhorse" status of reliability. Just trying to help out with my honest opinions.
    Last edited by CLASS3NH; May 17th, 2005 at 12:14 PM.

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    JT
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    As for the “Beauty” aspect – there are much prettier guns than a Glock when they are sitting under glass at a gun store. But, when I look at one in my hand, a Glock wins hands down. Because now I’m getting that familiar feeling in my hand, feeeling the perfect weight, and knowing what I can do with it. And the prettiest one is my model 23 that has the most wear on it. The slide has some of the black worn off. The polymer is smooth in a few places. Sitting in my hand, that gun is the best looking one I own.
    Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    JT.
    It sounds like ya got a good companion there. One who you could stake your life on. Can't get any better than that!

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