1911 reputation?

This is a discussion on 1911 reputation? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It's meant as humor, so please don't get your panties in a wad. The Holy Gospel 19:11 The Holy Gospel from the book of John ...

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  1. #61
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    It's meant as humor, so please don't get your panties in a wad.

    The Holy Gospel 19:11


    The Holy Gospel from the book of John (Moses Browning).

    1. In the beginning there was the 1911, and the 1911 was THE pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.

    2. And shouldest thou muck with it and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.

    3. And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust.

    4. Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it.

    5. And lo, they didst install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord. For they doth break and lose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle.

    6. And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abominations wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunction to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.

    7. Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.

    8. And they didst chamber it for cartridges who's calibers startith with numbers less than the Holy Number 4. And lo the Lord did cause great grief amongst these men when their enemies who were struck in battle with these lesser numbers didst not fall but did continue to cause great harm.

    9. And being a deceitful spirit the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unnameable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did function.

    10. And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a "dingus" to make them appear safe.

    11. But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and did proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol, and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken. Yet man continue to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.

    12. And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-Boom to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.

    13. Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended.

    14. And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace in the land, except for the evil spirits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were sent to the place of eternal damnation by the followers of John.



    © copyright 2002 by John C. Schaefer
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

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  3. #62
    Member Array koolguynet's Avatar
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    FWIW ... I purchased a S&W 1911 a few months back and have put about 250 rounds through it. It has been completely reliable with no failures. Best of luck with your decision!

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    follower of gospel 19:11

    With the exception of replacing the stock sights w/ TFO's for my aging eyes, my Kimber plugs through 150 to 200 rds at a match, and dunno how many rounds for practice. Have seen FTF for many reasons from many pistolas, and shoot this 1911 because a broke gun at a match is no fun. No muss, no fuss, just cranking rounds down range. Magazines for the 1911 are another matter, however. They are finicky feeders, but give 'em what they like, and ye shall be rewarded.
    NRA, USPSA SS & Lim-10
    Blessed are they who, faced with danger, think only of the front sight. J. Cooper

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Well, first of all when you say 1911 then you should be talking about a Colt firearm.
    And to take it a step further... I believe that it's a specific firearm as well. All 1911's are o-frames but not all o-frames are 1911.

    IIRC 1911 was designed in 1908 and is called 1911 cause it was approved for use by military in 1911. Anyways, the newer firearms that look and feel like 1911 are 1911 copies but are not 1911's. Part of the specs in the design for the 1911 was the looseness of the components giving them reliability even after they're dropped into dirt/mud (rack them and shoot them).

    Anyways, reliability wise: a gun that was designed to shoot tight groups will have very tight tolerances which means it will be more prone to jams/failures as it gets dirty while shooting. I have a Kimber Pro Carry II which hasn't jammed or failed on me at all. Actually in recent few months I have seen quite a few of the folks I shoot on semi regular basis with pickup new o-frames (varying from the 3" CDP's to 5" TRP's) and AFAIK none of them had any problems. Ok, sorry... one did... but then it turns out he gummed it up with oil... to the point nothing wanted to move freely in the GOO he created.

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ten_Ring View Post
    One other thing.....

    “Is the 1911 .45 an outdated design”

    Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid product liability lawsuits. It came from an era where it was the norm to learn how your weapon operated and to practice that operation until it became second nature, not to design the piece to the lowest common denominator. It came from an era in which our country tried to supply its fighting men with the best tools possible, unlike today, when our fighting men and women are issued hardware that was adopted because of international deal-making or the fact that the factory is in some well-connected congressman’s district.

    Yes, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the 1911 IS an outdated design….and that’s exactly what I love about it.

    – Rosco S. Benson
    Well, it can't be too much of a problem, it's been around for a looooong time.
    Isn't the military going back to o-frames now? I remember reading something about air force being the first one planning to go back to a .45 1911 clone. IMHO though, there is nothing outdated in a design that works. Oftentimes a new "solution" or product is just a marketing departments effort to find a solution to a non existent problem.

    I've started with an XD... in the process of collecting firearms, I have collected a fair amount of tupperware... and then I got an O-frame.... and well.... I'm in procss of building my O-frame collection. Already got one, and got another one coming in probably within the next week or so. Oh yeah... and I wont stop there either... I will get more.

  7. #66
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    All 1911's are o-frames but not all o-frames are 1911.
    Colt's are Model O frames, it's their designation for the pistol.

    IIRC 1911 was designed in 1908 and is called1911 cause it was approved for use by military in 1911.
    Browning started his development for a USGI auto pistol in 1902, it evolved thru the years into the 1911. Check-out http://coltautos.com.

    Part of the specs in the design for the 1911 was the looseness of the components giving them reliability even after they're dropped into dirt/mud (rack them and shoot them).
    No sir, that's not correct, the M1911s were fairly tight, the M1911A1 specs were loosen some during WWII.

    Anyways, reliability wise: a gun that was designed to shoot tight groups will have very tight tolerances which means it will be more prone to jams/failures as it gets dirty while shooting.
    Les Baer has very convincingly disproved that myth too.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD View Post
    Browning started his development for a USGI auto pistol in 1902, it evolved thru the years into the 1911. Check-out http://coltautos.com.

    No sir, that's not correct, the M1911s were fairly tight, the M1911A1 specs were loosen some during WWII.

    Les Baer has very convincingly disproved that myth too.
    Well, I believe that 1911 design was finalized in 1908 or therebouts and the 1911A1 was finalized in 1923 or 24 (A1 changes resulted from lessons learned in usage during WWI.
    In any case, what I was trying to get at is the fact that 1911 and 1911A1 (now that you bring that up) were specific designs. Current firearms are 1911 type handguns or 1911 clones.

    In regards to the tightened firearms being less reliable, maybe I have overgeneralized but... in principle it holds to a certain extent: a tight fitted firearm will be more troublesome then one that's slightly looser...

  9. #68
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    I believe that 1911 design was finalized in 1908
    It was finalized on March 29, 1911, the first 40 pistols were built on December 28, 1911.

    and the 1911A1 was finalized in 1923 or 24 (A1 changes resulted from lessons learned in usage during WWI.
    The changes were approved on April 20th, 1923. Colt was awarded a contract for 10,000 Improved Automatic Pistols, Caliber .45 of 1911 (the official name for the pistol until 1926, commonly referred to as the "transition" models), production of the "Improved 1911" began on January 23rd, 1924. The official model designation was changed to M1911A1 on May 20th, 1926.


    The chart does not mention the change of the slide stop nor that both short and long spur hammers existed on both models depending upon manufacturer and serial number range.

    Current firearms are 1911 type handguns or 1911 clones.
    Unfortunately that is true, it has become a generic term. M1911 & M1911A1 were only ever military designations, the civilian pistols were always called and rollmarked Government Model.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

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    I have 2 in my collection right now. I have owned a few others through the years. I love shooting them. They aim better then any other gun I own. They also have more FTF's and jams then any other gun I own. I would not carry either one of them. I don't mean that drastically it is just my opinion that they are finicky. All guns can jam but it is my belief that 1911's are pron to jam more then lets say my XD 45 which by the way has never had one problem in the 3000 or so rounds put through it yet or my Glock 19 which is a awesome piece of work and will shoot anything and I mean anything I put in it. I can not say that for my 1911's. The are pretty as hell but the bottom line is everybody has their opinions, I choose a semi auto over a revolver, some guys out here want the revolver. I choose a gun that I trust to go boom when I pull the trigger every time. Some people out here say their 1911's will go boom every time and I will not doubt them nor will I argue with them about it. A lot of the old timers will be bias against the newer guns, they call them plastic and tupperware but that is their opinion just as this is mine. I also believe everybody should own a 1911 but as a second gun, not a first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by airbornerangerboogie View Post
    I started out with the Springfield XD's .45 cal service and 9 mm subcompact. I bought a used and abused Colt Defender and it gave me grief (and brass dents in the forehead), but I took it to a good gunsmith who knew his trade and was certified on 1911's. That Defender is now my carry gun and I would not part with it.
    This may mean nothing to most of you, but rack a glock, SW M&P, or XD and then rack a 1911 you'll hear the difference.
    I am not sure what it is that you are hearing when you rack your 1911 slide but I tell you what. I will be more then happy to go out in the woods you and do some good old down to earth training, crawling around in the mud and dirt, firing off a couple thousands rounds. You can take your 1911 and I will take my Glock or XD and we can count who has more malfunctions.

    I am sure both guns would hold up better then I would.

  12. #71
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    As QK noted, everybody and the brother makes a 1911 now. A correctly built 1911 is not finicky, the US Government didn't have to send 2 million plus USGI M1911s & M1911A1s to gunsmiths and have them tweaked to work the way they were designed to.
    And no need to throw up the "hardball" argument, I have a 1913, 1940, 1949 and a 1950 that all have the Mil-Spec barrel throats in them, they have fed every type "hollowpoint" I have tried in them.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

  13. #72
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    I've been carrying a 1911 both professionally and privately in one form or another for 30 years. There is no other I would choose over it.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

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    I have two .45 acp 1911's. Both 3.5" barrels. One a Colt Officers I've had well over 20 years and the other is a Paraordnance P-12 I've had for about 15 years.

    Both are great guns and were reliable right out of the box. The Colt was finicky with some hollowpoint reloads and that could have been overall bullet length, but it shoots anything factory.

    I have since replaced mainsprings, recoil springs and a barrel link on the Colt and mainspring and recoil spring on the Para.

    Last I shot the Colt, and it's been a while, I had an accuracy problem that I haven't investigated yet. Could be a barrel bushing or any number of things. It has probably 35,000 + rounds through it.

    But I really haven't shot the 1911's since getting a couple Ruger Wheel Guns and the Glock and XD.

    I still love the 1911 platform and all things considered I think mine have performed pretty damn well for being stock guns except for the few replacement parts that were routine replacements. Except for the broken barrel link... that wasn't considered "routine".
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    Thumbs up I Just Can't Keep Quiet Now.

    I will agree that some Government Model pistols as they come out of production now are finicky. That is because they are thrown together by pistol parts assemblers and not gunsmiths.
    There is absolutely no reason to live with or put up with a 1911 pattern pistol that is finicky.
    Please have a simple tune up done on your pistol and it will instantly and almost like magic become one of THE most reliable handguns ever designed.
    There is NOTHING about the 1911 pistols that is inherently finicky concerning feed, function and ejection.
    It is one of the most tried, tested and battle proved handgun designs ever produced.
    If the barrel is correctly fit to the frame feed ramp - and the breech face is decently smooth - and the extractor is properly fit and tuned - and the Full Length Guide Rod is in its proper location in the garbage can - and the slide travels smoothly on the frame then the Colt Government model is every bit as reliable as any GLOCK pistol. That is an indisputable and honest fact.
    If you own a Government Model handgun then you should EXPECT and DEMAND that it perform for you as an exemplary ultra~reliable handgun that you can always bet your life on.
    If your own personal Govt Model is giving you LESS than perfection in the way of performance - then send it out for a basic reliability tune up by a qualified 1911 smith.
    Call it the added minor cost of having the finest - best pointing - sweetest triggered - hard hitting large bore self-defensive firearm as your trusted everyday traveling companion.
    If your personal 1911 is giving you LESS than that then don't complain about it.
    Sink an additional buck and a half into it and you'll be carrying one of the finest handguns ever designed and built for the exclusive purpose of saving your bacon when your life is in deadly peril.
    For me personally if I knew that the world was going to be in total SHTF chaos tomorrow I'd be stoking up Colt magazines tonight and venturing out into the thick of it with a Colt Combat Commander as my personal sidearm.
    End of story.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  16. #75
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    and the Full Length Guide Rod is in its proper location
    I admit, I bit on that one for a second, QK.
    Payback?
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

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