October 31st, 2007 02:05 AM
Is there a such thing as too much gun?
I recall a while back reading about a gentleman who used a 10mm auto in a defensive shooting. One of the points the prosecution made was that he was using a "extra deadly round" or something absurd like that. The man was prosecuted, I can't remember all the details, though I doubt that was the only reason why he was.
My question is, what do you think is too much gun? What makes it too much? Is there a such thing? Or is it as black and white as a shooting being justfied or not? What would a jury think?
Last edited by homersimpson; October 31st, 2007 at 02:08 AM.
Reason: add detail
Two of my favorite responses:
"What is it about gun control laws that makes you feel safe?"
"For the same reason I always wear my seatbelt."
October 31st, 2007 04:56 AM
Nothing is black and white....it's all a matter of perspective. IMHO, a .50AE Desert Eagle might be too much...but YMMV. If you can carry it and shoot it (accurately), more power to you.
On the other hand--if you can't carry it well or shoot it accurately, then you might have "too much gun"--not limited to caliber.
- know the difference
is a fancy name for crappy fighter
You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know
October 31st, 2007 05:10 AM
If the prosecution is talking about your caliber, bullet type, or firearm type/modifications, they have no case. Even a sub-par attorney will have the charges dropped before the sun sets.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
- Edmund Burke
October 31st, 2007 05:16 AM
Too much gun? Thats a joke.
The only time you can have too much gun is if you carry something that has more power then you can handle. I can't handle a .50AE (believe me, I've tried and it hurt to shoot), so that would be too much gun for me...although I can handle most other calibers just fine.
I think using a round thats more likley to kill someone right away would be doing them a favor. It would be kind of cruel to pump them full of .17 varmint rounds and watch them slowly bleed and die...If I ever get shot, I'd rather die quickly then be in agony for 30 minutes.
The phrase "an extra deadly round" is pretty pathetic IMO. If someone is shot with a 10mm or a .40, they might die. If they are shot with a .45 or a .44mag their chances are no more or less of dying.
If you use a gun against someone, there is no grey area. You either use deadly force or you don't. Using a .22 is deadly force along with using a 30-06.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Smith & Wesson M&P9c
October 31st, 2007 05:54 AM
Was this about that retired teacher out hiking who shot that I-rate man on a trail? He was carrying a 10mm 1911 for protection, if memory serves me well. I remember one juror that was interviewed stating that one of the reasons for convicting was...He carried hollow point bullets, designed for killing. This may not be the case the original poster was talking about, but I always remembered that statement. Goes to show you the "mentality" we might be up against if things ever came to that.
October 31st, 2007 07:19 AM
Too much gun? Yep, there certainly is. I fired a friends 45-70 revolver loaded with full house reloads. It was way too much for me. The thing weighed about 10 lbs and still kicked like a young Missouri mule.
October 31st, 2007 07:22 AM
Mr Ayoob's advice, which sounds very convincing to me, is to carry a gun/caliber that the police use. They use hollowpoints? Well, "Sir, I made my choice based on what the Sheriff's Department selected." That sort of thing. That would be a pretty good defense, I believe.
Six for sure...Uh, I mean Five. Five for sure..
October 31st, 2007 08:07 AM
In a perfect world, of course there's no such thing as too much gun. But, we don't live in a perfect world, and we are tried by people, not machines. Therefore, it can be prudent to take that into consideration when selecting our self defense tools. Certainly, it is not the overriding consideration, but something to think about.
Imagine someone firing in an otherwise completely justifiable manner, using a DE .50AE with "Born to Kill" and "Death Dealer" (or similar) engravings or markings, using home-made hollow points tipped with cyanide and mercury. Now imagine that same shoot with a run-of-the-mill Glock just like the local PD uses, loaded with the same (or similar) ammo to what the local PD uses.
The situations of the shootings are the same, and in theory there should be no consideration as to the tools used in the necessary application of deadly force...but a prosecutor is a human being, not a theory, and the jury is made up of people; people who can be swayed by emotion and image. It may not be right, but it is.
Just something to think about.
A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.
October 31st, 2007 08:13 AM
October 31st, 2007 08:16 AM
Sadly, when carrying for defensive purposes, we must take into account the aftermath of a defensive shooting. It's very possible that you will have to deal with an aggressive prosecutor or an ignorant jury, and it's just as important to plan for that as to plan for a gremlin in a dark alley. It might not be right, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.
A prime example of this is the hiker that's been brought up a couple times already (I think it was Mr. Fish). He was carrying 10mm JHPs to be prepared for large predatory animals, which is perfectly reasonable. Unfortunately, instead he found a predatory human, and his choice of ammo helped land him in prison. I think his attorney was incompetant as well, but that's another problem.
This is why (among other reasons), I do not carry a .223 AR pistol. I wouldn't mind owning one, but for carry and possible defensive use, it would cause me more trouble than it's worth, while my USP will do the job just as well without making it easy to paint me as a nutjob afterwards.
So, yes, there is such a thing as "too much gun" in a particular situation. If you're life is in danger, or if society has collapsed and you are fighting for your survival, use whatever weapon you can get your hands on, PC or not. But before that moment, there are things you can do to minimize the aftermath of having to use your weapon, while not sacrificing preparedness. Mr. Ayoob's advice is very good in this respect.
"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
Is this hard to understand? Then why does it get unintelligible to some people when 5 little words are changed?
October 31st, 2007 08:40 AM
Most of the salient points have been made I think but I do feel that some degree of platform normalcy is wise - which ties in with choices that might follow LE useage.
Then too the concealement aspect - a stage is reached where a gun just gets too darned big and heavy!
This below would be a shade too much gun ....... well, for carry anyways LOL.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
October 31st, 2007 08:45 AM
The retired school teacher was Mr. Harold Fish ( http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/ ).
Choose a 10mm for self defense?...argue that agencies like the FBI and Kentucky State Police issued 10mm firearms and only "retired" them due to the smaller stature of it's personnel. That is certainly what I would direct my defense counsel to state (with a complete list of other LE agencies that issued the firearm) if I had to use one in SD and I was facing a convened Grand Jury.
A DE50 used? Well, direct your defense counsel to search high and low in Westlaw for instances of one being used in legit SD....and good luck.
Carrying what locals carry (gun and ammo or both) is always a good idea.
USAF: Loving Our Obscene Amenities Since 1947
October 31st, 2007 09:04 AM
I like Springfield Armory's logo...
October 31st, 2007 09:27 AM
I too have a 45-70 pistol. Hurts to much to shoot it - I have run about 10 rounds through it, each time I pull the trigger I fear that the rise is going to sprain my wrist.
I have also heard of a person having an issue with a pistol dislocating their thumb several times due to recoil - that was a 44mag derringer. Perhaps that was too much gun, but personally think the problem might have been their grip. That said, the recoil was sufficient enough to cause the rebounding hammer to self cock - and since the trigger was still pulled the derringer chain fired - not sure if it had a stock hammer spring or not.
October 31st, 2007 09:38 AM
What you have to remember is that if you go to court you have to justify the means. That involves the gun you use, why you carry, what caliber, why your shirt was tucked in...etc. They are going to try to pin it on you in most cases, because so many people are sheep and just don't understand. These are the things that my dad taught me to think about when carrying. Does it mean I don't carrry because of the risk? Heck no! I'd rather spend time in prison than lose my life or the life of a family member. Hopefully, I never have to draw down, but if I do I'm going to be ready for it. Just my 2 cents.
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