cocked and locked 1911: dangerous?
This is a discussion on cocked and locked 1911: dangerous? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; No - it is quite safe. Been there, done that. However, it always bothered me a bit, so now I carry a DA/SA pistol. Its ...
November 6th, 2007 10:38 PM
cocked and locked 1911: dangerous?
No - it is quite safe. Been there, done that. However, it always bothered me a bit, so now I carry a DA/SA pistol. Its still .45, just as reliable and accurate, and similar in size and weight to a LW Commander. You do have alternatives!
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
November 6th, 2007 11:11 PM
When I carry a Browning-design semi-auto, I carry it in Condition One. Carried thus, it is no more dangerous than any other, to my way of thinking. I would agree, however, that you must be comfortable with it if you are to carry it. If not, I would consider something else. There is no need to be uncomfortable with what you are depending upon to protect you.
Good luck with whatever you decide!
November 6th, 2007 11:26 PM
The gun was designed to be carried cocked and locked. Do it or carry something else.
November 6th, 2007 11:49 PM
Yup. But not to those who know how to use it.
cocked and locked 1911: dangerous?
November 7th, 2007 12:17 AM
So I would say that the rationale for cocked and locked carry of the 1911 is that this is the quickest and safest way to go from a "quadruple safe" gun to a fired bullet. ~~~~ with a a very SHORT, CRISP, perfect trigger pull.
And then with a quick upward ingrained flick of the thumb the pistol is back on solid safe again without having to de-cock.
Handguns such a the Glocker (& I am not anti-Glock) are totally no "conscious controls" but, I just love the 1911 trigger and the trigger is of supreme importance to me personally.
Any daily carry self~defense firearm that you own....if it is cursed with a terrible mushy gritty heavy trigger pull then either hurry up and fix it or dump it. That would include both revolver or semi~auto.
Just my opinion on that.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
November 7th, 2007 01:13 AM
i feel more safe having 2 external safeties (as well as 2 internal ones) than i would with a DAO or DA/SA carried with hammer down, in which case the only safety is a longer pull of the trigger
November 7th, 2007 02:27 AM
A cocked and locked 1911 has far more safety built into it than the Glock 23 that currently sits on my right hip and I have no problem with the Glock.
As Lima said, for almost 100 years that 1911 has been carried cocked and locked. It was designed to be carried that way.
If you just can't get past what amounts to an irrational fear then don't carry a 1911. Pick another gun that doesn't freak you out.
November 7th, 2007 03:05 AM
Considering you've built 1911s, competed with them, and as you say trained to the degree of discharging 80k rounds in a year with 1911s, then it seems to me to be quite silly to even ask this question under the guise of 'why'(?).
The answer as to why is part and parcel of the firearms parts and understanding the firearms form, function, usage, and construction.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
November 7th, 2007 05:06 AM
Cocked and locked is not dangerous as long as you are knowledgeable about the 1911 and have a good working gun. Alot of 1911s come with a 80 series safety or Swartz safety which would block the firing pin if dropped. There is also 1911s with titanium firing pins and extra power firing pin springs for drop safeties as well.
This is probably a dumb inaccurate test I did but when I went to the recent Halloween party I had a 1911 airsoft that is set up like a real 1911 in function and form. I cocked it and did not lock it to see if the hammer would drop carried in an OWB holster. I did this the entire night and the party was packed and I had to have bumped into everyone in the party, lots of times hitting the holster. Well after 6-7 hours of being in a sardine can I checked it again as I was leaving the party and the hammer never fell, with the thumb safety not even engaged. This put my confidence in a 1911 being safe cocked AND locked even more at ease.
ETA: BTW, the airsoft 1911 I used has a very light trigger to.
Last edited by Nakanokalronin; November 7th, 2007 at 05:13 AM.
Reason: Edited to add....
November 7th, 2007 05:53 AM
Retired Texas Ranger Lee Young said it best (in answer to the same exact question). "If it weren't dangerous, I wouldn't be carrying it."
You can try carrying it C&L empty around the house for a while to see if the hammer drops or the safety gets swiped off. If it still bugs you, carry something else. If you're married to the 1911 look, consider Para's LDA model.
November 7th, 2007 06:00 AM
Well, the rationale would be that it is the only useful way to carry a defensive pistol of that pattern.
Originally Posted by rmccoll
If you need to use it, you are not going to have time to manually cock the hammer, or cycle the slide, to get the gun ready to use.
Carrying with the hammer down on a live round is, IMHO, far more dangerous that carrying cocked and locked.
Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.
November 7th, 2007 08:33 AM
Frank Hamer, another Texas Ranger opined that they were dangerous too. He like them and supposedly carried his cocked and locked with the grip safety taped off.
As best as I understand the Glock mechanism it is about 80% cocked all the time and it doesn't have a safety. Someone with more Glock knowledge correct me if I'm wrong. A 1911 is perfectly safe if it is used correctly in my view. I much prefer the 1911 and it's safety to any designs featuring SA/DA or DAO operation.
November 7th, 2007 08:45 AM
I believe you're thinking of Texas Ranger Charlie Miller.
Originally Posted by Herknav
When ask "isn't that dangerous?" He replied, " I wouldn't carry the son of a bit** if it wasn't dangerous."
"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper
"Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow.
End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."
November 7th, 2007 09:38 AM
Reminds me of something I read in the past...
Is "Cocked and Locked" Dangerous?
Q: The one and only problem I've ever had with the classic 1911 is having to carry "cocked & locked.” In your opinion, are the double action only models offered by Para-Ordnance the way to go when safety is concerned?
There are really two parts to your question so I'll deal with them separately.
First, yes the P-O LDA is an excellent option when the cocked and locked 1911 is a problem. Charles Riggs wrote a nice article for me on the LDA which addresses this:
Second, I believe that the concern about the safety of the “cocked and locked” (condition 1) pistol is more a matter of perceptions than reality. It looks scary. When you're new to the 1911, it feels scary. I started out with wheel guns and it took me some time to get used to cocked and locked. But, given the huge number of M1911 pistols which are out there in service, you would think that we would hear more about accidental discharges if this were a problem. The fact is that we don't because they don't go off by themselves. I have only heard one story from one police officer who claimed one went off in his holster when it bumped against a banister as he descended a set of stairs, but when I pushed him for details, he refused to say anything more. He wouldn't tell me the kind of holster, if the gun had been modified, its state of repair or any other circumstances. This led me to believe that he was either blowing smoke or there was something about the gun he didn't want to tell me.
What do we mean by “cocked and locked”? The M1911 pistol is loaded by inserting a charged magazine and racking the slide. This action chambers a cartridge and cocks the hammer of the pistol. The thumb safety is then pushed up toward the sight. This “locks” the pistol. The safety is on and the slide will not move. Inside the gun, a piece of the safety rotates (red area in diagram) and blocks the base of the sear which prevents the sear from releasing the hammer. If the sear hook on the hammer were to break, the sear would be captured by the half-cock notch preventing an accidental discharge. The stud that locks the sear will also not allow the hammer to fall if the safety is engaged.
But what about the cocked and locked pistol taking a hard hit on the hammer? Could it go off then? Listen to this report from Terry Erwin:
"About ten years ago, I was working as an armed-plain clothed-security officer. During a struggle with an arrested subject the Combat Commander I was carrying cocked and locked, holstered in a Bianchi "Pancake" on my strong side hip, struck the center door jam of a set of double doors. The center door jam was knocked loose, and two belt loops were torn off of my jeans. The hammer was bent inward and the safety would not move. A gunsmith had to press out the safety, hammer pin, and sear pin. The edge of the sear had cracked off, and a piece of one hammer hook also cracked off. The gun did not discharge upon that impact. I have carried several Colt's, including that repaired Commander for most of my adult life, and have never once worried about the weapon (myself or someone else is a different story, but not the gun)."
The 1911 is a single action semi-automatic pistol so it has to be cocked in order to fire. People deal with this in one of three ways: cocked and locked (condition 1), or they chamber a round and carefully lower the hammer (condition 2) so they have to thumb cock the gun to fire it, or they carry it with an empty chamber and rack the slide when they bring it into action (condition 3). I would advise either condition 1 or 3 for home defense, but not condition 2. I don't advise condition 2 under any circumstances. (For more discussion on the conditions see “The Conditions of Readiness”) If you are only using the gun for home defense, there is nothing wrong with leaving it in condition 3 with a loaded magazine but with an empty chamber – as long as you have the presence of mind to load the weapon under stress. (Don't give me a "duh" on that one because weird things happen to one's mind when someone is trying to get into your house at 3 AM).
When the gun is cocked and locked, the sear is blocked from releasing the hammer. Further, unless a firing grip is on the pistol, thumb safety swept off, and the trigger is pulled, the gun will not go off. For my money, this is much safer than a Glock or some of the other new pistol designs which have no external safety. The Glock, by the way, is also pre-cocked which is why it can have a much lighter trigger than a real double action gun. It could be said that the Glock is “cocked and unlocked” which is called “condition zero” with the M1911. Anecdotally, we hear of many more "accidental discharges" with Glocks than with M1911 pattern guns. The 1911 has two manual safeties. It may look scary, but it is really much safer than many current designs.
If an M1911 has been butchered internally, all bets are off, and I have seen a couple like that. But if the gun is in good repair, it is safe and will not go off unless the thumb safety is swept off, a firing grip is on the handle, and the trigger is pulled. If you buy a used M1911 pattern pistol, be sure to have it checked out by a competent gunsmith just to insure that the gun has not been modified or made dangerous by a tinkerer and that it is in good working order.
A sideline: of the pistols I have carried, the M1911 is the only one I carry with the safeties engaged. I carry S&W and Beretta DA/SA guns with the safety off. Glocks and wheel guns don't have a safety at all (and no, I don't consider the trigger flange on the Glock a real manual safety). In this respect, the cocked and locked M1911 is the safest pistol. It is unique in the fact that it has not one but two manual safeties which have to be acted upon to make the gun fire.
Now, to argue the other direction for just a second, do I feel safer with a true DA/SA with a firing pin block and a manual safety like a S&W or Beretta? Yes, in an absolute sense, I do when I'm in the world of theoretical possibilities, but again, I think this is more a matter of feeling than reality. Some weird combination of events could conspire to take the safety off, push down the grip safety and pull the trigger all at the same time, but I can't visualize what that circumstance would be. Nevertheless, when I’m backpacking and I know the gun may have to ride in my backpack and flop around in a tent with me, I will often carry a S&W DA/SA just because some of these strange possibilities come to mind. For the purposes for which a gun is needed, I feel safer with the M1911 because I know I'm going to shoot it better and faster than these other options.
I have seen "accidental discharges" with M1911's, but without exception they have been instances in which the finger was on the trigger or the fire control group had been modified by an incompetent. I have yet to document a single case in which an M1911 simply experienced a catastrophic failure and went off while cocked and locked. And I do hunt for such stories because this is a concern for a lot of people.
Another interesting “safety feature” of the M1911 was first observed by Massad Ayoob. In the event that a bad guy might get your gun away from you, confusion about the controls of the cocked and locked M1911 could cause him enough hesitation to give you a chance to either get the gun back or flee. The current generation of thugs have cut their teeth on double action semi-autos and revolvers and many do not know how the M1911 operates. Ayoob tested this with people who were unfamiliar with pistols by giving them unloaded pistols of various designs and measuring how long it took them to figure out the controls and make the hammer drop. The M1911 proved to be considerably slower to fire than double action guns in the hands of those who are unfamiliar with the gun.
November 7th, 2007 09:48 AM
The only down side of cocked and locked for me is racking the slide to get the round out when unloading the gun. but becomes second nature after awhile.
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