November 23rd, 2007 01:03 PM
To Laser or not to Laser a Sig???
In 3 weeks I will be buying a Sig 229 - 40 caliber pistol because I rented one at the range I belong to and after shooting this gun I left the range with an excellent impression of both its reliabilty & accuracy! This gun will be used for home defense and shooting at the range! My question is whether or not adding a laser would increase my accuracy? I have never shot any gun with a laser- so any shooters opinions would be welcomed! If you recommend a laser perhaps you could suggest a laser to install on this pistol! Happy post thanksgiving & good luck getting out of your turkey coma!
November 23rd, 2007 01:12 PM
No, a laser will not make you any more accurate. It’s a waste unless you have a specific need, and then it’s debatable at best.
If you feel you must purchase a laser, I suggest you go with a light/laser combo mounted on the rail, such as the M6. That would be much more useful home H/D than a laser alone.
November 23rd, 2007 02:01 PM
Sixto and I are in the two camps when it comes to laser sights.
My 226 has a rail but it is unlikely to ever receive a light. However, I have fitted CT grips - as I have too on the 228 and 220.
Now, I am always first to admit, I do NOT regard these as primary sighting tools - far from it - they are strictly adjuncts. Regular sights must be the prime useage for practice and training but ....... this is the ''but'' I mention .......
Because if switched on ''at the ready'',you will get a laser spot projected when the gun is gripped - that means that if light is even partly subdued you can pick out the spot without trying as you go for a ''normal'' shooting position with regular sights. No time wasted with ''where's the darned spot'' - that is way counter-productive - but instead a backup mode if you will and despite what Sixto considers "a laser will not make you any more accurate." - I would alter that to say it will not make the gun any more accurate but - in some circumstances I do believe it can make a useful difference to shooter accuracy.
Consider one good example ....... it is dim light, and you have quickly taken cover - you wish to expose as little of yourself as possible to shoot around that cover. The laser will permit getting on target without achieving any raised gun - rather the gun could be kept low and barely exposed.
I also as a side bonus love the feel of the CT grips in their own right - laser or no.
Some of us will always I know have to agree to disagree
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
November 23rd, 2007 02:30 PM
Lasers have advantages and they have disadvantages, it all depends on the situation and your own experience/training level. There is a current thread on this same subject, so I'll snip/cut from my reply to that post here...
As everyone who'll read this post will soon tell, there is a love/hate relationsip with lasers... some folks love them and others are almost fanatics in their dislike of them. Both groups have their reasons for feeling the way they do about lasers and I doubt if anyone will change their minds because of what is said here. Most that have a good one (and use them properly) love them while I've noticed the laser haters usually have never owned one or had a bad experience with an early or cheap model. I said in the other thread if anyone is thinking of buying a laser for their weapon they should first do the research, try at least one or two that seem to offer what you want and then decide for yourself if a laser will do what you want it to do for you.
While some people disagree, for the VAST majority of shooters they are excellent training aids, valuable in poor lighting situations or where traditional aiming methods may not work (like shooting from an awkward situation, such as when falling on your back or side, or if you're hurt and forced to use your weak/injured hand) and/or when it's difficult to see iron sights. Most self-defense shooting takes place at close range and under darkened conditions (at night or inside a building or other structure) so being able to see the laser's "dot" is usually not a concern. Another point is under stress, you'll most likely be looking at the target, not your guns sights. Since the laser projects it's light onto the target, you don't have to take your eyes away from the BG while trying to aim. From my personal experience and research, lasers make aiming and finding your target easier for most people, are an excellent training aid (especially for improving trigger control) and provide another layer to your protection package.
Personally, I think lasers are an OUTSTANDING aid to any pistol. So does the military and many police departments. If it's for a self-defense/CC handgun, I'd recommend something like the Lasermax or Crimson Trace lasers if there is one that fits your gun. They don't change the outline and overall look of the pistol so there is no problem with using your normal holster. If there isn't a custom laser made for your gun, try to get the smallest one that will fit your gun and is still a quality laser. Lasermax, Aimshot, Laserlyte and several other companies make some very good universal and model specific and/or rail mounted lasers that work with most modern pistols.
FWIW, despite what some people will tell you, it has been shown by many studies in recent years that a laser placed on a potential target (BG) frequently does have a deterrent effect - especially on the low level criminals most of us are likely to encounter such as burglars, muggers and others who are looking for easy targets of opportunity and a quick, easy buck - eliminating the need to actually fire your weapon and the associated legal, emotional and other problems that usually follow a shooting, whether it's justified or not!
OTOH, lasers are not a crutch meant to compensate for poor gun handling techniques or a lack of training with traditional shooting methods. Also, you usually get what you pay for and relying on a cheap, poorly designed and/or built $20 laser can make a bad situation worse when the SHTF and it doesn't work as advertised when you try to use it. While a quality laser is no more likely to malfunction than your guns magazine, trigger, firing pin, ammo or other part, from personal experience I can say don't put your faith in the laser or any other man made object 100% of the time and ALWAYS have a back-up plan. Learn to use your weapon and the sights it came with (plus any "gagets" like lasers and lights you install) and practice, practice, practice with your gun until you know EVERYTHING about it and how it works with your eyes shut!! As Murphy will tell you, if something can go wrong with ANY part of your personal defense weapon/system - and at the worst possible time - it will.
From a liability standpoint (and aren't we all worried about liability these days), if you're concerned having a laser installed on your weapon will be used against you in court, on a list of 100 things a DA will use against you, the laser is probably #101. A good defense lawyer would simply point out you are actually SAFER than most iron sight only equipped gun owners/users and a more concerned citizen because of the deterrent effect lasers can have (whether you believe in it or not) in not just possibly preventing the actual need for firing your gun, but a laser also makes it less likely you would hit an innocent by-stander with a poorly aimed shot.
I say don't knock lasers until you try one. If you like it and it works for you, use a laser. If you don't think a laser will benefit you, don't use one. I also suggest you don't take my word or anyone else's, but find out for yourself. Only you can ultimately tell what does or doesn't work for you. When you've made your decision - whatever you decide - do what you feel works best for you and don't worry about what everyone else thinks. It's YOUR gun, YOUR money and YOUR life. While I may decide not use the laser on my weapon, as someone said in the other thread, I like having the option.
Last edited by rachilders; November 23rd, 2007 at 05:52 PM.
"... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane
November 23rd, 2007 02:31 PM
November 23rd, 2007 04:05 PM
I think the only laser I would use is an M6 with the flashlight/laser in one system and then I only woud use it for the house gun. I'd never carry it. I've got a Baby Eagle .40 with a rail adapter and an M6 on it in the safe next to my bed. I can get into the safe instantly by useing a 4 finger code. I've played with just using lasers and think there is no place on a gun for them. They wil get you killed. With the M6 the laser is in the middle of a bright flashlight that lets you identify your target wheather it's friend or foe. My carry gun (Sig .40) has night sites but that is it.
Life member NRA since 1983
I carry a Kimber Ultra Carry II in a Crossbreed SuperTuck. My wife carries a Walther PPS .40 w/Crossbreed holster.
November 23rd, 2007 06:15 PM
I have a laser on all my carry pistols. Reading the civilian stats thread, and FBI stats say most confontational shootings are
less than 6'
over in less than 4 seconds
3 rounds fired
I was taught and pratice to have my left arm up and extended slightly turned sideways strong arm back and shoot from beltline. I use left hand as needed on BG, gun is not where he can get to it as in a 2 hand stance, less time to fire from belt, and where red dot is is where it will hit.
Place a budy 6' in front of you and hold your hands out empty in standard 2 hand hold and see how easy it is to knock it to the side. Bad guy comming at you with knife one hand free to ward it off the way I do it.
Now when i want to have fun I go to range and shoot 2 handed about 200 rounds twice a month
1942 M3 Autocar Half-track...M3A1 Diamond T Half-track...57mm Anti-Tank Cannon
NRA Endowment Member...President West TN Military Vehicle Collectors...MVPA Member
November 23rd, 2007 06:35 PM
I have a Streamlight TLR-2 light/laser combo for my SIG(s), it was fun to play with when I first got it. Now it gets used to entertain my cat.
When holding a light or a laser, I would prefer NOT holding directly in front of my COM, which you basically do when gun mounted in a Weaver stance. I may try tankdriver's method though just to see if I can get any use out of the TLR-2.
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
November 23rd, 2007 09:35 PM
plus one on this. a laser is a waste of time. use the money for ammo. a light mounted on the rail is better than a laser.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
An armed man is a citizen. An unarmed man is a subject.
Red State State of Mind
November 24th, 2007 09:03 AM
I have used a laser and think on gun should be without one.
When using my sights, the laser does not exist. I don't see it and don't use it.
When I can't use my sights, ie: fast shot after clearing the holster, when there is no time for sights, etc. I believe these types of instances is when a laser is indispensable.
Unless you are very good, a quick shot from the holster w/o sights may or may not be effective. The laser changes this to probably will be effective.
IMO, close combat is where the laser will save you time.
Lasers are not sight replacements, the suppplement the sight.
November 24th, 2007 10:04 AM
For my P3AT - I absolutely love the laser (Armalaser). It helped tremendously with trigger control on 'the noisy cricket' and flinch, as you can see what you're doing on the target, and immediately recognize and fix them. That, and the sights are practically non-existent on the pistol.
I absolutely love it on my P3AT. On my CZ40B and on my 1911, I'll pass. I shoot well enough without lasers on larger pistols, and my point shooting is improving.
November 24th, 2007 10:42 AM
Ithink something else needs to be mentioned. They are a great training aid for trigger control, or lack thereof, like jerking the trigger one way or the other, throwing off the shot, especially for the novice shooter. So in a sense they will gretaly improve accuracy form some. They should not be used as a primary sighting device. The intimidation factor for most BG has been proven in the streets, to greatly lessen the need for a first shot to even be fired. My moral to the story is if you like them get 'em. They have not been such a great seller the last 10 + years because they do not work.
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I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.
November 25th, 2007 09:13 PM
I have tried to articulate this before about how a laser is an asset. As said it is not a replacement for iron sights, though it might be used instead of iron sights i.e. when you need to fire before you have that "proper two handed sighted grip and stance" which is apparently the case in the vast majority of SD shootings from the reports/studies I have read. A couple of folks talk about how following or trying to locate that red dot can lose you seconds when milliseconds count. Thats true. Lasers are not sights in the conventional sense. Lasers are more like confirmation for point shooting. When we are point shooting we are trusting that we will hit what we are pointing our gun at. Our focus is on the target we don't look at the gun or sights to confirm that it is aimed. We are focused on the target, we see the target, identify it and fire. All that happens as fast as our minds can operate. To me it seems that the laser is confirmation that the bullet is going where I pointed it. It is almost as if the bullet is already going down the pipe by the time the red dot registers in my brain. I saw the dot on the target so I know I made that shot, I'm looking for my next target. Does that make sence to anyone? Maybe some one can say it better. The point I'm trying to make is that if you think of lasers in terms of sights or scopes then they won't work for you because they are not the same at all.
Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution
Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family
November 25th, 2007 09:30 PM
OK, here's something else to muddy the waters:
Yes, I need to wear out a barrel in practicing, and practice in all sorts of stances, from cover, ducking and running, and so on. I know that. Really, I do.
I also know that I am supposed to TRY and sight my shots as best I can. Unfortunately, unless I happen to be wearing my reading/computer glasses, I can't focus on much of anything, much less the front sights (presbyopia, in case you're curious). Usually, out and about, I am wearing my driving glasses, which focus perhaps 8' out and farther.
It would seem that point shooting based on practice, practice, practice, expecting it to be within 10 feet, is probably my most realistic plan. But (assuming I could dig up the money) wouldn't the laser be a good idea for those of us who do indeed practice... but wear glasses?
Last edited by Paymeister; November 25th, 2007 at 09:31 PM.
November 26th, 2007 12:59 AM
LongRider & Paymeister both make excellent points that are frequently not mentioned or are overlooked.
As I said in my earlier post, try a laser and if it helps you do the job (hitting your target) then get one and use it. If a laser doesn't seem to help you or you feel it's a hindrance, don't use one. Like anything else, they can break or fail to work when you need it most which is why I recommend not becoming dependent on one. There are also times when they just don't work that well (outdoors in the sun for example) and can be difficult to see. However, under most conditions where it would be used, seeing the lasers dot isn't a problem and a quality laser that is properly maintained is no more likely to fail than anything else on your gun, including the gun itself.
"... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane
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