Owning/Carrying different guns?
This is a discussion on Owning/Carrying different guns? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I shot the procarry ii again today. I'm buying it. It fits my hand better than the sig. I can get proper placement on the ...
February 12th, 2008 08:20 PM
I shot the procarry ii again today. I'm buying it. It fits my hand better than the sig. I can get proper placement on the trigger while still putting the grip in the right place in my palm, and activate the magazine release without moving my grip. Can't do that with the sig. I may switch over to it exclusively for carry, and shoot the sig for kicks.
February 12th, 2008 08:36 PM
I will dissent just a bit on the close manual-of-arms idea. I never had problems going back and forth between DA sixguns and the 1911, both of which I used for serious purposes from 1984 to 1997. In 1997, though, I made a conscious decision only practice with, and carry 1911 pistols, for police duty and CCW, and found my skill level with the 1911 did climb remarkably. I noticed this when shooting an my own, and also on my agency's qual course. So, while I could operate both systems in a functional manner, it was better to stick with one system.
I did, however, gradually work revolvers back into my carry ensemble, snubbies on the one end for back-up, and a large .357 for long-range shooting.
For reasons too long to get into here, though, I switched duty pistols in 2002, by which time regulations specified certain DA autos in .40 S&W. I went first with a G22, then in 2004 bought a SIG P229R DAK, which I found I could shoot dramatically better than a G22. I still kept a G22 around, though, as it seemed to me it would make good spare weapon. Point gun, pull trigger. Well, I was wrong. The difference in trigger stroke length, though slight, caused me to fumble twice while attending a shooting class taught by an internationally-known instructor. I had shot the G22 in the morning, and switched to the SIG for the more precise shots anticipated for the afternoon. The short G22 trigger strokes, over several hundred rounds in the morning, had temporarily reprogrammed my brain and hands. After just a few flubbed shots, I was back on track with being able to shoot the SIG well enough, but I knew it was time to dump the Glunck for good. (Hey, Glocks are fine weapons, just not my cup of tea!) I have found my revolvers to work just fine in combination with my SIG; they point the same, have longer trigger strokes that are close to the same, the triggers themselves are narrower, and both types have good strong trigger return mechanisms.
Hopefully these two personal accounts will be helpful to someone.
February 12th, 2008 09:12 PM
I figure a decade with each platform pretty much ingrains it's "personallity" adequately.
I spent the 60's & 70's with S&W & Colt revlovers...PPC and such.
The 80's I played with 1911 .45's.
Thee 90's settled on Glocks while calibers varied, the platform did not change significantly.
Now five Glocks and a few M19 .357 and a smoooth Python.
Feel equally confident with all...is this unwise?
"If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men." Romans 12:18
...if not...be prepared to meet Mr.10mm, .45, .40 or any one of their little brothers.
February 12th, 2008 10:23 PM
I'm still up in the air as to how I feel about this particular subject.
I have only ever carried a 1911. However, I've shot just about every type of gun out there.
My husband bought me my first striker fired gun and I went to the range with it. I tried it out and when it malfunctioned I found myself scratching my head. Not because I was thinking in "1911 term" but because I wasn't as familiar with that particular gun as I wanted to be.
I dropped the magazine and tried to fire the gun and nothing happened. I forgot about the magazine disconnect. I put the magazine back in, pulled the trigger, nothing happened. Apparently I needed to re-rack the slide. I wasn't sure why that was.
It's not that I think it would be confusing to switch back and forth between the M&P and my 1911, it's just that I'm not as familiar with the M&P as I am my 1911. If my 1911 does something wrong I know exactly how to fix it. I'm very intimate with it's workings and function.
The striker fired M&P still eludes me in some of it's peculiarities. Once I figure it out I'm sure I won't have a problem switching back and forth between the two should I decide.
I want to be the type of person who doesn't care so much about WHAT they are shooting as much as they are shooting well. I want to be familiar enough with all types of weapons that if I was forced to use something other than my carry gun I could still get the job done.
February 12th, 2008 10:29 PM
don't switch up edc guns. bad news bears.
February 12th, 2008 11:29 PM
I drive standard-shift cars, automatics, motorcycles, (even an automatic-transmission motorcycle - weird!), dump trucks, farm tractors, Bobcat loaders, cranes; - once learned, any form is manageable. In heavy city traffic you need to be able to instinctively and automatically shift gears/adjust/compensate for width &/or length/compensate for air-brake lag/etc., but we do it all the time without thinking about it.
I know this is supposed to be about handguns, but it's also about people and what they can do. While I don't disagree with any of the "one format" posts, most people can learn to use multiple formats - if it's worth it to them, of course. My primary carries are a 1911, a PF-9 , and a CZ-75 (pre-B, with the spur hammer). Sometimes, the 1911 with the PF-9 for BUG. Even when I draw the PF-9 though, my thumb still makes the sweep instinctively, as that is my main training. The CZ can be carried "Cocked-n-Locked" like the 1911, but I often carry it with the hammer down to the "safety notch" (half-cocked?), giving me DA but still "appeasing" my stubborn thumb. No real adjustment or distractions or major function changes among them.
Two things I'd like to share, though, that I teach:
FIRST, some pistols have an "UP-to-Fire" safety. Either AVOID them totally, or STICK EXCLUSIVELY TO THEM. This isn't just a different manual of arms, this (to me) serves only to deliberately generate confusion and undermine instinct/training. My opinion, you're welcome to dis-agree, but think about it before you set your heels against me.
SECOND, I suggest you NEVER engage your safety with your primary shooting hand. That is, I will draw with my right hand and dis-engage the safety lever with my right thumb as part of the draw, but to engage the safety I reach over with my left thumb to engage it. I have two reasons for this; one, my right thumb only knows how to dis-engage the safety, so even in a moment of panic there's no chance of my flipping it on-off-on-off when I need it off. Second, if I make a concerted effort to engage the safety, I know that it is, indeed, engaged - not just "flipped" but maybe not completely and properly engaged. If it should malfunction somehow, I'll more likely realize sooner since my attention is focused on it and not just "flipped" without thinking.
Well, again I've supplied a longer-than-needed response. I'll quit now.
February 13th, 2008 02:19 AM
While I don't think everyone should do it and I do not recommend it for carry guns, I regularly switch platforms between 1911's and Glocks/Smith M&P. Firearms are an integral part of my life and have been for years. I can run my guns in my sleep. It is better for the average person that they carry one system but if you train hard, and often, you may do fine with varying platforms.
February 13th, 2008 02:27 AM
I carry similar style safety guns. A HK USP in the winter (C'N'L) and a SA Champ 1911 in the summer. With the safety disengaging the same way, I feel comfortable carrying either .
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
February 13th, 2008 02:50 AM
I've been manipulating firearms all my life, and I train with them at least several times per week, if not every day. I agree with chuck brick...it is very possible to make several platforms second nature, and be able to operate them independently with the proper amount of training.
It's hard for me to look at the pros/cons for a carry pistol though...it seems there is only "one" that is the best choice. I would like the 1911 a lot more for carry. I'd feel bad for my sig though if I just used it as a target gun
February 13th, 2008 06:07 AM
I carry whatever strikes my fancy on any given day.
Different guns, different platforms, but I am familiar with all of them.
"Muscle memory?" Okay............. I don't believe there's any such thing, but I won't belabor the point.
Carry what you are comfortable with. It is your decision.
February 15th, 2008 09:38 AM
I think the real difference is between SA and DA. If you are carrying cocked and locked, let's say a 1911, then you have to remember to take the safety off. If all you have to do is pull the trigger, then there is less to remember. If you are used to just pulling the trigger, then switching to an SA may be a mistake. But as between a revolver, or a pistol that is either DAO or SA/DA, I am not sure there is much difference.
There is that old saying, "Beware the man who shoots only one gun. He is probably pretty good with it." I think that argues in favor of not switching out carry guns unless necessary.
February 15th, 2008 10:59 AM
I often switch between one of my Baers and my Sigs. I practice with both and seem okay with the switch. I imagine I'd be better off with one platform for carrying, but I just can't seem to manage doing that.
Les Baer 45
N.R.A. Patron Life Member
February 15th, 2008 01:38 PM
C9H13NO3 - it seems your problem will be transitioning between "duty" gun (M9) and the 1911 platform...as you well know, the M9 and the 1911 have exactly opposite motions for disengaging their safeties. I would think this argues against the 1911 as a carry gun, as much as I know you like it.
Of course, you can overcome the problems inherent in operating opposite systems, but this isn't like a stick vs. an auto - driving is a constant operation, entered into knowingly and with time to figure out what tools you're using. Defensive firearms uses are notoriously abrupt, surprising, stressful, and with very little time allowed for you to figure out what the "tool de jour" is. As an aside, this is my main complaint with the M9 - it works differently than almost all other firearms out there, and the safety is poorly positioned for some manuipulations...but that's neither here nor there.
I know how you feel about the 1911s, however...I'm really starting to love them on the range. I won't carry one, though.
A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.
February 15th, 2008 02:45 PM
Oh, trust me friend...there is a such thing as muscle memory.
Originally Posted by kahrcarrier
Back when I was a new officer, just out of our field training program, I was dispatched to check a residential alarm. I was checking around the back and went to peek inside the large sliding patio door. A HUGE dog jumped up on the glass and let out a series of barks that I swear shook the glass, or at least I thought so at the time!
I almost tripped backing up, but when I looked down, my pistol was in my hand. I had drawn it from my level III security holster, had it pointed at the threat, and hadn't even realized I had drawn.
It surprised me, but it proves to me that muscle memory takes over when you are taken by surprise and have to react without thinking. I must have drawn and holstered my pistol several hundred times in the academy. In fact, we had an entire block of instruction that was nothing more than drawing and holstering, drawing and holstering.
My training took over when I was startled, and I'm glad for it. I laughed out loud after that darn dog scared the daylights out of me, though! To unconsciously draw a pistol from a level III holster is quite a feat, as it takes a thumb motion, a finger motion, and rocking motion, and just the right draw. Otherwise, that pistol is NOT coming out of that holster.
Any police officer who has been in a gunfight or other highly stressful situation will tell you that you do indeed fall back on your training when the waste product hits the oscillating cooling appliance. Maybe "muscle memory" is a silly term, as it is the brain that has the memory, not the muscle. But whatever you call it, it exists.
Slow is smooth.....smooth is fast.
February 15th, 2008 05:05 PM
I prefer to carry a single type of firearm, that said I carry G23 or G27 and sometimes only my bug which P3at. But the manual of arms on all these weapons are pretty much identical. In A stress situation that can be the difference as to living or dying. Not a big believer in semi's that have an external safety. Just one more thing that could get you killed, if you forget.
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