Mounted light and/or laser?
This is a discussion on Mounted light and/or laser? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Shotgun Willie
Not to change the direction of this thread, but....why do so many of you choose a handgun over a shotgun ...
September 5th, 2005 12:24 PM
Lots of folks think that the so called Scatter Gun doesn't need to be aimed in a home defense situation. That shot pattern, even with an open choke won't spread THAT much along the distance of your average home hallway. IOW, you've still gotta AIM! Also, think if you have family members elsewhere in the home and of the type of building materials used on the interior of the home. If you use 0-0 Buck, you might wind up with an overpenetration problem and kill a family member or penetrate a wall and kill your neighbor if you live in an apt. Careful attention needs to be paid to ammo type inside for HD.
Originally Posted by Shotgun Willie
As has been mentioned, there is a problem negotiating the tight areas inside the home with a shotgun. What do you do, hold low ready or high ready when you go up the stairs or into the kitchen from a hallway? IF your BG is there, will you signal your presence and offer your weapon to a disarming barrel grab by leading with your barrel first? This is why most SWAT cops use the stubby barrel H&KMP5 for the room clearing role. You can bring a handgun in close to the chest in a "retention grip" but you can't do so with a shotgun. BTW there is a simple solution to a barrel grab. Just STEP BACK. If the BG hangs on, the move to the rear has the effect of pulling the barrel into center mass at point blank range. Get a buddy and try this with a pool cue as the weapon. Buddy graps tip of the cue and shoves it to the side. Just step back and pull the cue to you. See where the tip "points."
Having said all of that, the point of a HD is to survive until help arrives, not do the cops jobs for them. I won't go playing John Wayne unless I absolutely have to insure the safety of a family member. I keep a Benelli M121 (forerunner of the famous Super 90) AND one of those old fashioned double barrel "exposed hammer" guns referred to as a "Stage Coach" gun. That's for my wife, for ease of use and so she can instantly ascertain the cocked status of the gun. The Benelli is MY baby and represents the most serious "firepower" for a very serious situation.
Optimum use of the shotguns is behind barricade in the bedroom (aka The Alamo) where adversary must squeeze through the chokepoint (the only door) with no cover for them and facing a shotgun crossfire. If help is not imminent, as happened in New Orleans, then I clear the home with the shotgun and go offensive with my Mini14 for those close to my home and my M1A for those looting my neighbors down the block.
My next door neighbor is also a former US Army Captain. He flew Cobra Gunships, but he's a big hunter and shooter, too. We have a defense agreement and have set up fields of fire that interlock. I watch his back, he watches mine. Wives keep preimeter watch, kids load mags and keep down. We both went thru the lawlessness of Hurricane Andrew.
New Orleans is not gonna happen in our neighborhood!
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
September 5th, 2005 12:24 PM
September 5th, 2005 01:29 PM
I appear to have been careless in my words. Thanks for pointing out that you still have to aim. In the open areas of my home there is probaly enough room for the shot to spread but in the halls and small rooms there is not room for that.
I do not like the length of the gun for any type of clearing of the home but at this point I dont have any other option besides my knife(Timberline Specwar). Big knife but I would rather have the firepower as first defense. You mentioned the 00 buck. I worry a little about overpenetration but I was told the a lower powered field shot was a bad idea. Bad advice. Since I have a pump I thought about mixing it up with field, 00 buck, and slug. This way I have options. What do think?
I clearly need more knowledge and a lot of training in defense tactics. A will and means may not enough in many situations.
With the AWB gone, will the H&K MP5 be available to civilian or is that still LEO and Military only? I would love to own one. Don't know much about the AWB and what it covered.
HK USP .45
HK P2000sk .40
September 5th, 2005 03:19 PM
Let me point out that a HK MP5 wis a NFA weapon (submachinggun) and begins with a 200 special tax stamp. Secondly, do you have 15,000.00?? yes 15 THOUSAND to plank down? If your talking a SBR (short barrel rifle) you're still talking big bucks, and God help ya if you shoot somebody with it, cuz the Feds will be on you like flies on horse dung.
if so, you can have either one, plus wait about 6 months to get it/them.
The best bet right now, is look for a shorty AR15 type, or similar.
I'm NOT being rude in any way, just trying to help you through your choices, and lead you in the right direction I currently own many Title 2 weapons, including 2 MP5s (one with the sound supressor) and the legal stuff and hoops you jump through are tremendous right now.
Your best option right now, is to find somthing similar within your budget. If you're a die hard full auto fan like me, then go for it Dude! Lotsa fun!
For house protection, I would suggest to use the #6, 7 1/2, or 9s in the 2 3/4 target loads. They probably won't pass thru Drywall and won't kill friendlys in the other rooms. Even if you hit the BG with the wad, that alone will keep the shot pattern in him and kill him instantly. Just some honest words, and I'm sure the other Forumites can lead you in the right directions as well..
September 5th, 2005 04:22 PM
It is not target aquistion in weak or low light I am worried about, the laser is great for that. What I am worried about in weak or low light in my home is target identification, there are other people in the house besides me. It is probably just me, but I prefer to have one hand free, so I prefer the tactical light on the handgun. I would prefer a 12 guage with 00 Buck, but I find that it is a little too unweldy for use in the tight quarters of the house.
Originally Posted by P95Carry
September 5th, 2005 06:57 PM
Not to change the direction of this thread, but....why do so many of you choose a handgun over a shotgun for HD? Would be curious to hear why you guys chose the handgun.
For me, short range shots, tight quarters and less chance of having it taken away/ or knocked off target. I find lights that are mounted too big to easily CC. Great for HD though. The HK should be a solid weapon, my USP is 13 years old and works flawlessly.
September 5th, 2005 07:18 PM
rocky - in fact I think some answers are already covered in posts above.
Reiterating - briefly - for me it first and foremost that my carry handgun is my close friend - the shottie is not quite as close. Carry is on me or on floor - it is in my supervisory control and so no concerns over possession being other than mine. I have my night sights and CT's too on that.
I like shotties a lot - and they do have great value for HD - no two ways about it but - I am aware of the ''less wieldy'' factor as well as security. I have a step son I cannot trust and if he or his buddies were to find the unsecured shottie I would not be a happy camper (understatement of the week!) - thus, I would have to be constantly locking it away and unlocking for night time - not on my agenda.!
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
September 5th, 2005 08:59 PM
Besides as previously posted, they have a serious recoil and muzzle flash; they are difficult to manage in close quarters. They can be very difficult to control and retain - there's almost no good retention mode. You almost have to have a tact light mounted on the shotgun for use at night - it's very difficult to hold a shotgun and a handheld light. Shotguns require a fairly complicated manual of arms - they are basically low capacity guns so you really need to keep them topped off.
September 6th, 2005 04:24 AM
Wow. Guess its time to get a handgun. All the above makes sense. I only thought through part of the equation. My shotgun serves a role in HD looks like, probaly limiting it to proper roles will give me better results. Just having a gun doesn't mean you are well defended.
Great thoughts guys. Starting to get an idea of things. Lot to learn.
No offense taken Class3NH. Just thought it would be a fun gun to own. Not really any thoughts of using one for HD. I just think there is a certain cool factor surrounding those guns. But not for fifteen large. At least not yet. I start working part time in spring and start school full time so no chance of buying a MP5 anytime soon. Gotta dream though or life gets boring.
Just started a thread earlier about the S&W 642. I am thinking about getting one or a airlite for .357 capability. Not sure which to get and I know there is a lot of debate on the two calibers. Any thoughts or info please post in that thread. The 642 was a heck of a fun gun to shoot. Very suprised. Didn't think I would like it.
HK USP .45
HK P2000sk .40
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