Firepower - for size and weight? - Page 3

Firepower - for size and weight?

This is a discussion on Firepower - for size and weight? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by HotGuns Shot placement is SO much more important than caliber. That is a fact. However... In a shootout where you and the ...

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Thread: Firepower - for size and weight?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation Shot Placement v. Caliber

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns
    Shot placement is SO much more important than caliber.

    That is a fact.

    However...

    In a shootout where you and the badguy are both moving and trying to KILL each other, shot placement is the first thing that goes out the window.

    In a combat situation, the ability to accurately "place" shots is very difficult to do. Sure...anyone can shoot the center out of a B29 silhouetter and think that they are good to go, but the reality of is that when someone is shooting at you "shot placement" is way down the list of things to do.
    Agreed. Moreover, I would stipulate that a shot through the eye with a .22 is going to kill just as fast as a shot through the eye with a 45.

    However, in a highly fluid situation where both parties are moving between cover, or trying for position, an extremity shot from a .22, .380 or even a 38sp is not going to have the same "shock to the nervous system" as a shot from a .45. Just in cross sectional density PLUS velocity, it is going to be a much greater effect, if the bullet that strikes a hand or bicep is a 45. I don't care if the smaller round is tumbling or expanding, because the 45 may be doing so as well. The shock is still going to be greater.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.


  2. #32
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    I think the shock to the nervous system has been dismissed as a stopping mechanism. There have been too many accounts of people getting shot in a gunfight with .357 mags and .45 ACPs that didn't know they had been shot. All they said they felt was stings. To reiterate an account I gave earlier, I saw an actual police video of a thin woman that was shot 3 times in the torso and she didn't go down, and ran around a car with three .45 ACP shots in her torso. Such accounts are not uncommon.

    There are numerous accounts of LEO getting shot but they still subdue the BG. There are numerous accounts of BGs receiving fatal gunshot wounds and fighting for minutes.

    In another police video, a BG shot an officer in the arm with a .25 cal. The officer died at the scene.

  3. #33
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    There are numerous accounts of LEO getting shot but they still subdue the BG. There are numerous accounts of BGs receiving fatal gunshot wounds and fighting for minutes. In another police video, a BG shot an officer in the arm with a .25 cal. The officer died at the scene.
    There are a lot of variables in such situations. "WILL TO LIVE" is almost as powerful as being on drugs which is often the case with BGs. There was a case out in California where a CHP trooper got into a gunbattle with a perp who was on "Angel Dust" and the officer shot TWO cylinders of 41 Magnum into the guy. It got to the point that as he struggled to rise again from the roadway, the trooper fired and could see the concrete being pulverized benmeath the body as the rounds passed through and struck pavement. The encounter ended when another officer arrived and shot the guy in the head with a 12 ga. The officer shot in the arm just succumbed to the fear and the shock killed him. Little in the way of survival instinct. I know soldiers who've suffered grievous wounds and their attitude has always been: Nope...uh-uh...either kill me outright, or I'll make it back ALLLLLL the way. A healthy if twisted sense of humor is critical, believe it or not.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  4. #34
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    After her boyfriend shot her point blank in the center of the forehead, she told arriving cops she had a headache. After her full recovery it was shown the .357 had so perfectly split her brain that no permanent damage resulted. However, had the bullet been placed lower and into her brain stem, it would have been instant Goodnight Irene.

    In India, after putting several .45 FMJ's into or through perp, the LEO had to chase him down and hit him on the head with his revolver.

    The lady in New Hampshire who reached to her nightstand for sinex put a .25 ACP round up her nose, but it didn't clear her sinuses.

    Makes you want to use HP ammo all the time, except for the mouse guns that need all the penetration they can get along with expert shot placement.

    I think the 427 AC Cobra had pretty good power to weight :)
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

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    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  5. #35
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    Wink Already Brain Dead?

    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp
    After her boyfriend shot her point blank in the center of the forehead, she told arriving cops she had a headache. After her full recovery it was shown the .357 had so perfectly split her brain that no permanent damage resulted. However, had the bullet been placed lower and into her brain stem, it would have been instant Goodnight Irene.
    Proof, finally, that being a LIBERAL can save your life!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  6. #36
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    Swell I was a liberal, untill I got mugged at gunpoint :)
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  7. #37
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    Still not sure what I'll end up with. After 13 years in the military with the .45 I had to qual shoot with a 9mm and just plain didn't like it. I did not feel it had the stopping power I was used to. I need to find a range in SW Denver (Highlands Ranch/Castle Rock) with rentals or a club so I can try the different options. 9 vs 40 vs 45.

    RB
    Managerial Nightmare
    A proud supplier of ex-managers to mental health clinics.

  8. #38
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    Personally after so many years carrying an O frame slabsides 45 , I wouldn't think of changing. I just like single stacks, they have gotten me this far, always carry extra mags.

  9. #39
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    While I personally prefer .45acp in a Commander or Gov't. length 1911, my current CCW is a J-frame S&W in .38spl. +P with one reload. It carries and conceals well under a t-shirt, I shoot it fairly well at 7 to 10 yards and that's lightest caliber I have confidence in.

    When the time came to get my permit I needed a reasonably concealable and ultimately reliable handgun that I could afford, the S&W meets those needs. When finances improve I'll be shopping for a new 1911 but for now my 642 will have to do.

    I passed on a great deal on a lightly used Sig 229 .40 not long ago. While I really like the Sigs and the 229 in particular, the fire controls are reversed from the 1911 I'm familiar with. If I get them confused standng in a well lit gunshop then there's a high probability I'd do the same under stress when it matters most.

  10. #40
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    Does the 1911 with std 7+1 ''cut it"?
    Yessir Chris, it does and has for a longtime.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

  11. #41
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    rfurtkamp-
    I'm not comfortable with 7+1 or 8+1 - and as I put it to a local doing the combat shoot thing, "If I drop my mag during your El Presidente stage with my 226 in 9mm, I'm throwing more ammo on the ground than you started with."
    I hate the thought of dieing with an empty gun in my hand, so with my carry pieces I tend to go for the best of both worlds; Para-Ordnance P-14, 14 rounds of .45 and 2 spares; Glock 20, 16 rounds of 10mm and the spares have +2 floor plates. My medium duty piece is a Glock 19 with +2 floor plate gives 18 rounds in the gun and 2 spare G17 mags with +2 floor plates. Even my BUG/light duty piece is high capacity, though not readily reloadable, a Grendel P-10, 10 shot .380.
    I have had 3 encounters with goblins in my life (one before I carried, which changed my whole mind set) and all 3 have involved multiple BGs. Just displaying the fact I was armed stopped the last 2 instantly, but just in case, I prefer having enough ammo to do the job.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    I have about 40 handguns that I pick and choose from as the need changes. However, my personal favorites for CC are either a Bersa Ultra Compact 45 or 9 (usually the 45) or a Davis Derringer in 32ACP. The Davis is small enough to fit into a bathing suit if necessary, and while the caliber isn't the best and I only get two shots, it's better than throwing a stick! The Bersa holds either 13 rds (9mm) or 7 (45ACP) rounds, is fitted with a laser that was made for it and also came with a custom holster made to fit gun & laser. Below is a photo of the Bersa 45 and targets I fired at from 10 yards or so. One target was with the laser and one with factory sights. I had just installed a new barrel and you'll notice there is a shot on both targets that is low and to the left. That was the first shot fired at each target. I adjusted the sights/laser to center on the first shot and you can see all remaining shots are almost identical. It's good to know that the gun will hit point of aim whether using the laser of factory sights.
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    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  13. #43
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    Robert - looks to me like you have as good a result there as from any full size
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  14. #44
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    Thanks. Most of my guns will shoot better than I can, though sometimes I do get lucky. One of the advantages of having a laser is it takes away a lot of the guesswork. If you sight it in properly, all you have to worry about is watching the target and seeing where the red dot lands. If you can't use the laser, there's always the factory sights. It also helps to visit the range once a week or so and fire off a box or two! I try to alternate between the different guns so I don't get use to handling just one and forget any "quirks" a particular weapon may have in a pinch. When you only have 2 or 3 guns it's not a problem, but when you have over 4 dozen like I do... well, my memory isn't what it use to be!
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  15. #45
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    While I do also chop and change between numerous platforms for practice at range - I have very much settled on the one prime now for carry - and that is what for sure gets max useage and practice.

    I firmly believe in being adept at all likely platforms we may meet so as to be able to manage in an emergency but other side of the coin - the major one for me is - the ''beware the guy with but one gun''

    The aim therefore is (within an individual's limits and skills) achieving the most fluent and therefore effective ability ... such that all operations and even just ''feel'' are totally ingrained and reflex.

    I do like you, shoot alternating between irons and laser, with that switched off - using 226. I have to be careful tho, as was discussed with Tangle a while back - to not allow for any excessive reliance on the laser - keeping it strictly adjunctive. That usually means when light is low enough and I am ''mixing it'' with sights (not bright sun) that the first shot is iron sights and then it becomes evident (if evident) that the spot is there too - thus allowing for follow-ups using that even as primary sighting once seen.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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