Bhp

This is a discussion on Bhp within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ka0azs The Browning Hi-Power is the design where John Moses Browning corrected the mistakes he made with the 1911. (Caliber arguments aside) ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ka0azs
    The Browning Hi-Power is the design where John Moses Browning corrected the mistakes he made with the 1911. (Caliber arguments aside)
    I've heard that before, what mistakes did John make on the 1911?

    IIRC, JMB never finished the BHP design, it was finished and produced by FN. Isn't that right?

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  3. #17
    Member Array ka0azs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    I've heard that before, what mistakes did John make on the 1911?

    IIRC, JMB never finished the BHP design, it was finished and produced by FN. Isn't that right?
    Well, this is all MY opinon, but:

    1. It just "feels" better. I've handled and fired many 1911's over the years and have never found one to match the fit and feel of an out of the box BHP.

    2. I find the barrell bushing and takedown proceedures of the 1911 overly complicated, and just that much more to go wrong. Much prefer the BHP takedown.

    3. I feel the grip safety is unneccessary, probably contributes to why I don't like the feel of the 1911, and again, is just something else to malfunction.

    These are probably not so much "mistakes" as design choices that I don't agree with, but that quote sure does get the discussion flowing!

    JMB passed away prior to completion of the design, and the final work was accomplished by Dieudonne Saive of FN, with many of the final changes made to accomodate a French military contract IIRC.

    I'm sure Stephen can correct any factual errors I've made (as opposed to those based on my opinon)
    Randy
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  4. #18
    JT
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    Quote Originally Posted by ka0azs
    Double action automatics are a hardware solution to a training problem
    Well, Im going to have to respectfully disagree with that one. I think the ultimate action is DAO with no external safety. After that I would take a double action with no external safety. You have to have an external safety if you are going to have a single action. I would rather have a little bit longer trigger pull than have to worry about taking a safety off.
    Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Si vis pacem, para bellum

  5. #19
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    Hello. I am not a "historian" or collector of Hi Powers, but I have done a bit of checking on them over the decades. The first time I remember seeing the Hi Power being described as "the pistol correcting the mistakes that Mr. Browning knew existed in the 1911" was in some gun magazine, although I don't remember which or what author wrote it.

    Conversations with a number of folks who are up on the history of the gun and Mr. Browning have advised me that this was not the case. I don't know if it's true or not, but it does tend to make sense, I think.

    Browning's 1911 was proving quite popular and had been sold to Colt, along with all patent protections. The Hi Power was initially a striker-fired gun intended for a forty-caliber proprietary cartridge, although it would not have been at the same level of performance as today's .40 S&W. The original Hi Power ala John M. Browning was also larger than the finished gun after Mr. Saive's contributions. It is interesting to note that the FN-produced Model 1910 and 1922 were both striker-fired autoloaders as was his diminuative .25 ACP.

    Anyway, the great genius passed and D. Saive completed the gun. I strongly suspect that he got the idea for the sear lever in the slide from the similar but shorter lever in the side plate of the then modern Luger. I cannot prove that. In any event, he went to the external hammer and internals that certainly could not be considered similar to the great 1911. At that time, it is my understanding that the gun was intended for the military market and the removeable barrel bushing, etc, were altered to make fewer parts for a soldier to lose. In any event, I do believe that I prefer the external hammer Hi Power rather than the original striker-fired one envisioned by The Great One. (FWIW, Saive fathered the FAL rifle, one of the best and most prolific battle rifles in recent history. He was no slouch at designing, either, in my view.)

    The Hi Power wound up being chambered for the then somewhat new and popular 9x19mm at the behest of the Frenchies who wanted a new military gun in that caliber. It was they who requested not only 9mm but the magazine disconnect so that a stockpile of Hi Power pistols could be rendered inert simply by having the magazines removed or stored elsewhere. FWIW, the French never adopted the BHP, but went with French design (MAB, I think) instead.

    As for the other comments, I can only state for fact that I prefer the single-action auto pistol to the conventional DA/SA or DAO, but as a firearm instructor for 11 years, I worked with folks using all of these guns. It was not difficult to make competent shooters out of those folks wanting to use any of those action types. The only ones who remained mediocre or barely qualifying were those who either didnt' care or were not willing to work. All of us want to shoot well, but as we all know, wanting is not enough. Much work and proper practice is required.

    Best.

  6. #20
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    Steve - great stuff, yet again.

    So glad you joined us here to add your considerable knowledge.
    Chris - P95
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  7. #21
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    I love the BHP, have a 9 and a 40.

    That said, I would rather work on a 1911. Any 1911 or 1911A1 can be detailed striped and reassembled without tools, and with just 2 hands. Can't be done with a BHP.

    For an anywhere in the world gun, the BHP is tops. 9MM available about anywhere, BHP parts pretty much the same thing because so many countries haave used the gun.
    Keep the shotgun handy!!

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry





    I own a BHP just like Chris's (right down to the slim grips ) and wasn't crazy about it until I had a trigger job done on it (and had the magazine safety removed)....it is now without doubt the most accurate semi-auto that lives in my gunsafe, and I am going to pick up a new IWB holster for it, because there is just no way I can justify (to myself ) not carrying it....especially with the new 15 round MecGar magazine that seems to work so well
    "I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York

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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JT
    Well, Im going to have to respectfully disagree with that one. I think the ultimate action is DAO with no external safety. After that I would take a double action with no external safety. You have to have an external safety if you are going to have a single action. I would rather have a little bit longer trigger pull than have to worry about taking a safety off.
    I'll second that.

  10. #24
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    Too each there own but nothing shoots better than a single action

    Double action autos are again the Answer to the never asked question

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ka0azs
    Well, this is all MY opinon, but:

    1. It just "feels" better. I've handled and fired many 1911's over the years and have never found one to match the fit and feel of an out of the box BHP.

    2. I find the barrell bushing and takedown proceedures of the 1911 overly complicated, and just that much more to go wrong. Much prefer the BHP takedown.

    3. I feel the grip safety is unneccessary, probably contributes to why I don't like the feel of the 1911, and again, is just something else to malfunction.

    These are probably not so much "mistakes" as design choices that I don't agree with, but that quote sure does get the discussion flowing!
    Everybody has opinions and preferences - it'd be a boring world if we didn't!

    I've never been that impressed with the BHP grip, it's fine, but I'm not impressed with it like I am a Sig 22n or H&K P2000. OTOH, I've never thought of the grip on a 1911 being a problem either.

    I don't know if the barrel bushing should be a plus or minus, but I've always considered it neutral. I think it can't be too much of a problem because there are 1911 designs out that don't use the bushing, but the bushing types seem to be the huge preference. I would concede that a 1911 is a little more trouble to field strip than others.

    The grip safety is interesting. Because a grip safety likely saved my life, I really, really like them. The grip safety on the XD was one of the main reasons I was attracted to the gun. Here's my story: I was at the outdoor range one day all by my self practicing draw and fires with my 1911. I was pushing the envelope and on one draw I lost my grip on the gun. By then, the thumb safety was off. The gun literally spun around my trigger finger and my finger had to be pressing hard on the four pound trigger. The gun didn't fire because the grip safety blocked the trigger.

    I always find the claim that the BHP is an improvement over the 1911 interesting when the BHP, has an awful trigger. It is long, heavy, and gritty and has a long reset. A 1911 has probably the best trigger in the world and is short, crisp, and has the shortest reset of any gun.

    To me, the thumb safety design on a BHP is a step backwards; it is almost too small and the pressure and crispness is all but impossible to adjust. OTOH, the 1911's thumb safety is larger and by simply filing the profile of the detent, it can be adjusted to from light to firm operation.

    Then there's the magazine safety. Since few other guns offer this feature and few people desire this feature, most people have this feature disabled, and since it increases the force on the trigger it doesn't seem like it was a good idea to start with.

    Tactically, because a 1911 has a fairly open ejection port, it can be one-hand press checked pretty easily, but because of the small ejection port in the BHP slide it is nearly impossible to press check with one hand.

    You can see why I always wonder how a BHP is an improvement over the 1911. In almost a 100 years, except for the beavertail grip safety, the orignal design is essentially the perferred configuration - grip safety and all.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JT
    Well, Im going to have to respectfully disagree with that one.
    One of the things I like about this board, we can agree to disagree and not degenerate into a flame war if my answers aren't your answers.

    For me personally, I've never found a double action auto that I didn't despise it's trigger action in DA. I know I could learn to use one properly, but why bother when I've already got perfection in my BHP?

    Best regards
    Randy
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  13. #27
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    I would recommend getting a "Detective Slide". It makes the package about an inch shorter overall. It conceals OWB easier this way. For target competions I slide in a full size barrel in the shortened slide, it hangs out about an inch, but shoots tighter groups.

  14. #28
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    HWM - do you have a pic of that - sounds well interesting.
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  15. #29
    JT
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bud White
    Too each there own but nothing shoots better than a single action
    It depends on the shooter. I can shoot a Glock better than a 1911.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bud White
    Double action autos are again the Answer to the never asked question
    They answer the question, Could somebody please get rid of this dang manual safety?
    Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Si vis pacem, para bellum

  16. #30
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    I'm just going to have to side with JT here. I would rather put up with the trigger than have to fuss with an external safety.

    I'd never ever buy a semiautomatic for personal defense if not for the existence of double action/decocker/DAO type pistols. I'd stick with revolvers.

    As far as I'm concerned, the best trigger is a double action revolver cocked for a single action shot.

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