a second "hi" and -- don't Kimber 45s rock??

This is a discussion on a second "hi" and -- don't Kimber 45s rock?? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi all, As mentioned in my "intro" post, I'm moving to Texas soon, and will be going CCW as soon as I can (six months ...

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Thread: a second "hi" and -- don't Kimber 45s rock??

  1. #1
    Member Array papanewguinea's Avatar
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    Cool a second "hi" and -- don't Kimber 45s rock??

    Hi all,
    As mentioned in my "intro" post, I'm moving to Texas soon, and will be going CCW as soon as I can (six months residency, unless I'm mistaken, yeah?), and so many questions to ask (and my Mac keyboard is sticking, which annoys the h**l out of me, so please excuse any typos..)..

    I've been reading all the stuff on the web I can, and I think a .45 is the gun I want. The Kimber Custom TLE-II is just like gorgeous!! Any thoughts on .45 carry?

    I hope it never has to come out of its holster in anger, but if it does, I want it to stop the BG. A .45 ACP is a subsonic round, so how does this affect penetration? Is a head shot the way to stop the attack? What about if he's wearing heavy clothing? Is 7+1 enough? What about cocked and locked? I read that it's dangerous (I read this in the Kimber pistol user guide, no less!), but I've also read that there are few instances of when it's gone off unintended. The big question is: how can you carry something like that concealed?? I remember being in the Dallas-FW area a few years back, and one big dude came into a restaurant where I was eating, and there was this bulge under his T-shirt... isn't that 'brandishing' in Texas? Here in Europe, I carry a small penknife in a sheath on my belt, and even that (the blade is no more than maybe 3.5" - 4" long) is sometimes visible if my T-shirt rides up. How can you conceal a .45 automatic?

    Any Texans who want to give information on CCWs for legal residents, I'd appreciate that, too.

    But h**l, that Kimber is beautiful ..erm, stop me if I'm repeating myself....

    aside: now... I just have to find an image to go with my handle...

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  3. #2
    New Member Array kenpoprofessor's Avatar
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    The questions you are asking could be answered with a good Google search and a bit of thought, and there are many more gun fora than this one. May I suggest you do a more lengthy investigation before asking so many questions, you will probably find the answer on your own.

    BTW, I think this post is more suited to this forum.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...on-ballistics/

    Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

    Clyde
    While the tiger nears extinction, the amoeba lives forever.

    Lucius Annaeus Seneca, circa 45 AD “Quemadmoeum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.” (A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer’s hands.)

  4. #3
    Member Array gpsxplr's Avatar
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    I think a 45 is very concealable. It just depends on cover garments and your body. I was in a gunsite class last year and saw a guy conceal a full size 45 IWB holster with just a tshirt, it completely disappeard under the tshirt. Me on the other hand, I need something last a vest (too much belly, grip sticks way out there).
    I would say just try a variety of dressing options and see what works for you. It may be you have to change dressing styles to make it work. In addition a good holster and belt are essential.


    As far as stopping power, don't know, but there have been several rather long threads on this topic in the past.
    "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

    ~Benjamin Franklin

  5. #4
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by papanewguinea View Post

    I've been reading all the stuff on the web I can, and I think a .45 is the gun I want. The Kimber Custom TLE-II is just like gorgeous!! Any thoughts on .45 carry?
    It's currently my preferred carry gun (not a Kimber, but a 1911 all the same) The ammo is getting pricey, but the guns are fabulous, they carry very well.

    I hope it never has to come out of its holster in anger, but if it does, I want it to stop the BG. A .45 ACP is a subsonic round, so how does this affect penetration?
    I don't think thats a major concern, using quality hollow point ammunition, there's plenty of info out there regarding gel testing. Rather than take our word for it, it would be good for you to dig up some info. Not that you won't get good info here, but it's always nice to get info from multiple sources to eliminate some of the BS factor.

    Is a head shot the way to stop the attack?
    The head is the smallest target available, with an even smaller vital area, "the brain box", shoot center mass until the threat stops.

    What about if he's wearing heavy clothing? Is 7+1 enough?
    Generally, yes. However, don't buy in to the .45 one shot knocking a guy back three feet, or a shot in the arm spinning the guy in three circles before his arm falls off.

    Shoot until the threat stops, whether it's 2 rounds or all 7, or having to pistol whip the bad guy after your gun is empty.

    What about cocked and locked? I read that it's dangerous (I read this in the Kimber pistol user guide, no less!),
    You're misinterpreting what the manual states , the manual states that you shouldn't carry the gun "READY TO FIRE", ready to fire indicates that the safeties are not active, if the thumb safety is engaged, and the grip safety not pressed in, the gun is not ready to fire.

    Per Kimber's manual.
    Safe Carrying Condition: Never carry this
    pistol cocked, loaded and ready to fire as this
    practice could easily result in an unintentional
    discharge.
    Where in that statement does it say that you can't carry with the safeties activated, as stated above, it's not ready to fire until the safeties are deactivated.
    Do not carry a loaded gun with a
    live round in the chamber while walking, running
    or crossing any obstacle, where there is any
    possibility of slipping or falling as this could
    lead to a possible unintentional discharge.
    This does not refer to holstered carry, and is a liability for some idiot that decides he wants to play GI Joe with a 1911 in his hand and pretend he's storming Normandy.

    Cocked and locked (condition one) is the best way to go with the 1911, with condition 3 being the second best. For the 1911 condition codes, see THIS thread. IT IS NOT DANGEROUS, follow the basic firearm handling rules just as you would with any other firearm and you'll have nothing to worry about.

    1. Treat every firearm as if it were loaded
    2. Never point the firearm at anything you do not intend to shoot.
    3: Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
    4: Know your target and what is beyond.


    But I've also read that there are few instances of when it's gone off unintended.
    That can be said for all makes of guns that are handled improperly. Guns don't "go off" on their own, it's usually operator error, I have only heard on one instance when a 1911 fired without being mis-handled and that included an MRI machine.

    Keep the safety on until ready to fire, keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire and you won't have any issues.

    The big question is: how can you carry something like that concealed??
    Very easily with a good holster, belt and cover shirt.

    Example: My 5'5" 106lbs wife and a 5" 1911.





    I remember being in the Dallas-FW area a few years back, and one big dude came into a restaurant where I was eating, and there was this bulge under his T-shirt... isn't that 'brandishing' in Texas?
    Key words: bulge under his T-shirt..

    Wear a cover garment.
    Here in Europe, I carry a small penknife in a sheath on my belt, and even that (the blade is no more than maybe 3.5" - 4" long) is sometimes visible if my T-shirt rides up. How can you conceal a .45 automatic?
    See above.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Array Sarge45's Avatar
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    A .45 ACP is a subsonic round, so how does this affect penetration? Is a head shot the way to stop the attack?

    The .45 has had no problem stopping attacks for the last approx. 85 years. The recommended shot placement is center of mass, not head shots. The .45 was the US military choice in sidearm caliber for many, many years until NATO dictated a switch to 9mm for uniformity. Recall reading about Al Capone and the gangster shootings pre-WWII ? The Thompson in .45 acp was made famous and was very popular among gangster types. They had no trouble with penetration.

    What about if he's wearing heavy clothing?

    The .45 round doesn't care. It penetrates well on any soft target whether winter clad or not.

    Is 7+1 enough?

    It is for me. Most defensive shootings you will never use the 7-8 rounds anyway. But, you can always carry spare mags like I do.

    What about cocked and locked?

    The biggest threat to your safety regarding cocked and locked is your own complacency and a lack of familiarity with the gun itself. The mechanical aspect of cocked and locked in itself is safe.

    The big question is: how can you carry something like that concealed??

    You start with a good holster and belt setup and then you "dress around it". You may have to upsize your clothes by one size. It is easily done. It will take some practice in the mirror. I can do it and I'm 5'11.5" and 215 pounds.

    ...and there was this bulge under his T-shirt... isn't that 'brandishing' in Texas?

    Not familiar with Texas law.

    How can you conceal a .45 automatic?

    Close fitting holster, loose fit shirt and correct placement around the waist.

  7. #6
    Member Array papanewguinea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenpoprofessor View Post
    The questions you are asking could be answered with a good Google search and a bit of thought, and there are many more gun fora than this one. May I suggest you do a more lengthy investigation before asking so many questions, you will probably find the answer on your own.

    BTW, I think this post is more suited to this forum.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...on-ballistics/

    Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

    Clyde
    Hi and thanks for the response. No offense intended, but I'm not as stupid as I look... You can bet that I did check google, and other sites, and came up with a lot of stuff about carrying cocked and locked. But most of it was inconclusive.

    Anyway, I'll keep looking. Thanks.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array ronwill's Avatar
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    Welcome. I see JD has already answered your questions. This forum is a great place to learn so never be afraid to ask questions. I'm an old guy and I learn something here all the time.

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    Member Array gpsxplr's Avatar
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    Good write up here on Cocked and Locked
    "Is Cocked and Locked Dangerous?"
    "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

    ~Benjamin Franklin

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    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Welcome from San Antonio! You ask some really good questions for consideration in choosing a handgun for concealed carry. This is a (typically) friendly place, so don't be put off by the other newbie's response. Feel free to ask questions, in addition to searching through the forum threads.

    A .45 1911 does indeed make for an excellent concealed carry handgun. It's easily concealable and comfortable. My every-day carry is a Kimber Ultra CDP II, usually carried inside the waistband in a Tucker Answer. My standard defense load is Winchester Ranger SXT 230gr JHP. I use only Wilson Combat magazines.



    For a Texas-specific discussion, you might check out the Texas CHL Forum. You're welcome to PM me if you want to ask some specific questions, and certainly drop a note if you're going to be in San Antonio.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

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    Welcome, again!

    My husband (JD) has already given you some great answers and while I agree with him it's always great to get someone else reiterating good advice.

    As they say, in a multitude of counselors there is safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by papanewguinea View Post
    Any thoughts on .45 carry?
    I've been carrying a .45 (1911 style gun) since I started carrying a couple of years ago. I started with a .40 but moved up to .45 after experiencing issues with that gun. I'm happy to report I have never doubted my decision and gladly trust my life with both of my carry .45s.

    I hope it never has to come out of its holster in anger, but if it does, I want it to stop the BG.
    First of all, I hope your gun will NEVER come out of your holster because of anger. The only time your gun should be drawn is in necessity to save a life. You may be angry that someone is threatening you, but that should never be the reason you are drawing your gun. The reason for acting is in response to a threat, not because you are angry.

    A .45 ACP is a subsonic round, so how does this affect penetration?
    You've already gotten a lot of response on this so I'll move on.

    Is a head shot the way to stop the attack?
    As mentioned, the head is a very small target.

    First shots should always go to the largest target which is center-of-mass. If you have fired a couple of shots and your BG is still coming (for instance they are wearing body armor) it is obvious that COM is not working and you need to alternate a bit. Try pelvis and then head. Keep alternating until you get the desired effect.. i.e. your BG no longer wants to mess with you. In practice try 2 shots per "area." Get a large target and make a circle around the head, a triangle on the chest and an oval on the pelvis. Practice alternating 2 shots into each area starting with chest, moving to pelvis then finishing with head.

    What about if he's wearing heavy clothing?
    See above.

    Is 7+1 enough?
    Are you planing on carrying an officer's model? If not then you will have 8+1, not 7. And yes, I think it's enough.

    I agree that you should not fall victim to those who will preach a one-stop-magic-caliber. There is no such thing in handgun calibers. Shoot until your threat has stopped, PERIOD. If that happens with one round, GREAT! But if it takes all nine in your gun, the extra eight in your spare mag and then a beating with your empty gun this should not surprise you. It was just something you had to do to defend yourself. Don't stop fighting just because you think the fight SHOULD be over by now. Stop fighting only when the fight is over.

    What about cocked and locked? I read that it's dangerous (I read this in the Kimber pistol user guide, no less!), but I've also read that there are few instances of when it's gone off unintended.
    JD already explained that pretty well, but I'll say again that cocked and locked is perfectly safe.

    If you get to know the internal workings of your handgun and see what actually is required to happen before that hammer will fall you will see there is no reason to doubt the safety of a 1911. If it was unsafe it wouldn't be around anymore and not only is it still around, it's gaining in popularity in many aspects.

    Only a deliberate press on the trigger with all safeties disengaged will make your gun fire (barring manufacturers error).

    The big question is: how can you carry something like that concealed??
    With a good belt, a good holster and a good cover garment you can conceal almost anything.

    JD posted pictures of me carrying a full-size 1911, and I routinely carry a commander sized 1911. It is very comfortable and I've never had anyone notice it who I wasn't deliberately showing it to.

    In-The-Waistband (IWB) conceals the best, but Out-of-the-waistband (OWB) can be just as concealable and just as comfortable if you do it right.

    Here is me concealing my commander in an OWB holster...





    Not so hard.


    I remember being in the Dallas-FW area a few years back, and one big dude came into a restaurant where I was eating, and there was this bulge under his T-shirt... isn't that 'brandishing' in Texas? Here in Europe, I carry a small penknife in a sheath on my belt, and even that (the blade is no more than maybe 3.5" - 4" long) is sometimes visible if my T-shirt rides up. How can you conceal a .45 automatic?
    Not sure about Texas Brandishing laws but you saw a bulge, for all you know it could have been a cell phone, a heart monitor or anything else. It certainly could have been a gun, but unless it's easily distinguishable as a gun it can be anything. Either way, it's been show how either it is to conceal a big gun.

    Do your research and get good carry accessories (namely holster and belt). You'll do fine.


    Good luck!

  12. #11
    Member Array papanewguinea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    It's currently my preferred carry gun (not a Kimber, but a 1911 all the same) The ammo is getting pricey, but the guns are fabulous, they carry very well.
    Thanks for all the responses, and the friendliness with which you guys're teaching me.

    I'll let you know when I get the CCW ...

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    Senior Member Array tegemu's Avatar
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    Hi and welcome aboard and welcome to the U.S.A. The .45 is indeed a great gun and the gun of choice of many of us. There are a couple of forums dedicated to the 1911 (the common name of the Colt Semi-automatic pistol and it's derivativatives.) As Stated, JD has answered your questions very well. Let me reiterate, the 1911 is perfectly safe and the preferred method of carry by the majority of 1911 carriers. That was John Browning's (The inventor of the 1911's intention, it was originally designed for the U.S. Cavalry who needed to use his off hand to control his horse and could not jack a rouund from the magazine to the chamber. In order to fire the pistol, you must activate 3 separate safeties, consequentially I consider the 1911 to be the safest of handguns. I carry either a Commander sized or a 3" 1911, cocked and locked, at all times, and have a couple stashed in handy locations around the house.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence in their behalf. - George Orwell

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    Member Array gpsxplr's Avatar
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    rodc13,

    A bit off topic but those grips are awesome, mind if ask where you got them.

    Thanks,

    Kirk.
    "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

    ~Benjamin Franklin

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    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    i think your questions have been answered by others pretty well already.
    any gun can be concealed. many people carry full size 1911s.
    you cant go wrong with a 1911. you might eventually find that you want to go a little smaller and lighter, maybe not. i personally carry the kimber aegis- little 3" 1911 in 9mm with a light alloy frame.
    learn as much as you can. a lot of ppl here have great advice
    and welcome!
    Wo die Notwehr aufhört, fängt der Mord an
    (Murder begins where self-defense ends)
    Georg Büchner

  16. #15
    Member Array papanewguinea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    First of all, I hope your gun will NEVER come out of your holster because of anger. The only time your gun should be drawn is in necessity to save a life. You may be angry that someone is threatening you, but that should never be the reason you are drawing your gun. The reason for acting is in response to a threat, not because you are angry.
    Good luck!
    Thanks for that, plus the photos! I checked out your website.. any woman who does her website on a Mac has to have taste!

    As for 'in anger', I think we got a crossed line on that one. To do something in anger doesn't mean you're angry. It means to do something for keeps. No kidding around, like. So 'draw a gun in anger' means (in the British English that is my native language), 'to draw the gun because you're in a life-threatening situation'.

    Again, many thanks for the invaluable advice!

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