BUG or extra mags?

This is a discussion on BUG or extra mags? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by P95Carry I think mag's come first - feed the lion before worrying about the kitten! Me too, but I do see the ...

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Thread: BUG or extra mags?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    I think mag's come first - feed the lion before worrying about the kitten!
    Me too, but I do see the advantage of a BUG. But carrying another gun is a "where and how?" problem, plus I do have to leave it/them in the car on a regular basis. "Installing" and "uninstalling" two guns seems more than twice the trouble of one.
    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    In normal course of events - meaning home - office - just SIG and its mag. Go out to town then extra mag. If trip out much more involved then extra mag and R9 gets slipped into pocket too.
    I find myself, "...in the normal course of events..." which includes out and about around "town", relying on a Sig 226/229 or H&K USP and the rounds in the gun alone. I do often have another mag(s) in the car.

    And for the out of town trips, I don't carry a BUG, but I do take a BUG with full compliment of mags, holster, etc. with me. I figure if I have to use my primary gun in self-defense, the police will take it pending the outcome of their investigation. I can revert to the not carried, but available BUG.

    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    Some pistols like the Colt 1911 are so quick to reload & put back into instant service that I don't really see any time difference or savings in accomplishing a quick reload or grabbing out a BUG.
    Well, again, me too. I don't see the BUG as necessarily a good way to reload. I know that goes against the grain, but like you say, "...I don't really see any time difference or savings in accomplishing a quick reload or grabbing out a BUG."

    One of my concerns is what do you do with the primary gun to facilitate a fast presentation of the BUG? Dropping my primary gun on the ground just because it's empty is not very appealing. Plus that means I will be fighting with my second choice in a weapon instead of my first choice. That's not very appealing either.

    I may have to move and leave the primary gun, or it may fall out of reach or into the mud, sand, etc. Then what if I draw my BUG and it goes click instead of bang? It probably won't click, but what do I do when if it runs out of ammo? Throw it down too?

    The redeeming thing is that it is highly unlikely that we would need to reload in a gunfight. There likely won't be time or opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    Naturally, for a catastrophic weapon failure I would much rather have a BUG than hafta throw "now useless" extra magazines at the Bad Guy.
    That's what I consider the primary reason for the BUG; primary weapon failure that can't be fixed with and immediate action drill.

    But even then, the chances seem really, really slim that if our main gun fails, that we will have enough time to realize our gun has failed, draw a BUG and continue fighting. But anything can happen. Being more prepared can't hurt, but about the only place I can/want to carry a BUG is in an ankle holster. That makes for a very slow presentation, but it's a great location if you're sitting in a car or at a table - it's very, "not obvious" to retreive it.

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  3. #17
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    I work with technology every day (communications) and often joke about having something like a Catholic saints medal made, it will be for the patron saint of all technology; Saint Murphy :chairshot

    That hunk of iron on your belt is a piece of technology, no matter how reliable it has been, it is likely to fail at some point, and Saint Murphy says it will fail when you really need it. That said, I don't always carry a BUG, and when I do it is not in place of a reload (every main piece I carry is "high capacity" G19, G20, Para-Ord P-14) and I always carry 2 spare mags; it is for that catastrophic failure of the main gun or other loss of the main gun.

  4. #18
    Member Array Jim_Linch's Avatar
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    I'm playing with the idea of packing my S&W442 apendix offside, but if I got that route I want to have a setup I train with and will want the BUG with me at all times. I would still have my G19L strong side and a G17 mag offside, but with the BUG I would practice switching to it after teh first RTB and not do Class2 clearance until behind cover. Having the BUG in ankle or any place that is not fast to get to defeats the purpose really.

    The flip side is more crap on the belt. I've been packing the 442 Bramma grip style, but it's not very comfy and if I do go this route I will be getting a cross draw setup.

  5. #19
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    I rely on the Concealed Combat Commander IWB or OWB at 4:00 and 2 8's at 8:00. 25 rds of 45 acp in two quick mag changes works for me. The Cell Phone is at 9:00, and I have always practiced reloads with the cell phone on board to make sure I don't accidentally try stuffing it up the mag well. Re-loads are very fast. It is terrifying to imagine a situation requiring more than 3 shots or 3 seconds before or after movement or heading to cover. Unless the weak hand is controlling the shurefire flashlight, it should soon be holding a spare mag.

    The role of the BUG seems to be defined rather individually, and most are trying to give it a great deal of importance. Absolutely nothing can replace the access, capacity with re-loads, speed, control, or power of the primary. The primary should be THE one with which to practice, to carry always, and to count on absolutely. Keep it simple, fast, and effective.

    IMO the BUG ought to be as small, smooth, light, and thin as possible for deep concealment and stealth. It should be carried strong side when by itself, and weak side when complimentary to the primary. The NAA 380 Guardian and the Kel-Tec P3-AT come to mind. Revolvers are bulkier, snaggier, and more difficult to conceal, but some work well as BUGs. By its nature, deep concealment precludes the NY re-load due to the more difficult access, unless the primary ammo has been used. If the BUG's role is expanded, it must become larger, more powerful, and carried more accessibly, possibly interfering to some degree with the primary's fast presentation, and certainly very bulky and heavy for something so seldom needed.

    IMO the possible needs for BUG are: strong side shot, damaged, or blocked; primary ammo exhausted; primary malfunction; or loss of retention of primary, in that order of probability. I carry one extra mag for the BUG in a custom sleeve on the pocket holster, but I doubt I could re-load it if the strong side is shot up or blocked, anyway.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    If I had to choose between a BUG and a primary reload, I'd carry the reload... but I'd rather have both.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  7. #21
    Member Array Jim_Linch's Avatar
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    Gunthorp,
    you make good points. My only reason for a BUG would be for class 2 mals. The time it takes to access a BUG revolver on the waist line is MUCH faster than the time to go through the clearance drill.

    The question is... "Do you really want to dedicate all that training to something that 'might' happen once in a full moon and probably never during an actual shootout?"

    I'm thinking... not.

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    I also like to carry both an extra mag and a BUG.

    I don't have a BUG for more ammo. I have one in case an assailant gets a hold of my primary, or god forbid I have a malfunction with my primary. Ive known undercover L.E.O.s who got jumped, and could not fight back. Because they were protecting there primary from getting taken, during the melee.

    My partner even showed me how to draw my BUG from my ankle and get a round off in a second. While drawing the BUG, immediately start squeezing the trigger. By the time your BUG is drawn you have your first shot off. This takes some training, and a ton of practice to pull off properly. I'm nowhere near being effective doing this, yet.

  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    Sorry Sir,can't figure this one out. You reach down with your off hand and start pulling up you pant leg. With your strong hand you start pulling your ankle worn weapon and before it even clears the holster you have your finger on the trigger and are taking up the slack?? What kind of holster rig do you use as to be able to reach into the trigger guard before the weapon is clear?? I do not wear a ankle holster --- BUT---that seems kinda dangerous to me. ---My last comment was intensionally edited by me before the mods got ahold of it.(I'm such a sweetheart)------
    Last edited by RSSZ; October 2nd, 2005 at 07:38 AM.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array gregarat's Avatar
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    O.K., taking up the slack is done when it does clear the holster. When your on target it goes off. When done corectly. I havent tryed it yet with live rounds. Yes it is very dangerouse, unless you have alot of practice.

    Mabe it is alll crap, and bad practice. Im not sure about that yet myself. One thing is for sure, I dont care what "comments" you make or who edits them.

  11. #25
    Member Array Zach S's Avatar
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    Mags come first. I always have at least one spare on my body, more in my truck. On any given day, I may have another gun or three in my truck as well.

    I normally only carry a BUG in the colder months when my clothing slows down presentation of my primary gun (a 1911). My Kahr PM9 or Taurus M85 normally rides in my coat pocket. I dont normally carry reloads for my BUG, but have.

    As a result of my carry habits, I practice transitioning from my BUG to my primary in addtion to my other drills.

    ETA: And yes, I have been known to leave the house with only my Kahr or Taurus in my pocket with no reloads on a few occasions. A few occasions can be defined as "you could count them on one hand." Some gun is better than no gun.

  12. #26
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    Two points here.

    First off, about carrying a BUG. I heard on a local radio show that you should never rely on just one type of technology. That's a good point. So now in MOST situations, I carry my 9mm on my hip and the 642 somewhere else.

    Second, if I am running to the store or another errand and I am going alone or if I am on my way to my primary job where I can't carry in the office, I will just take the 642 in my pocket and leave it in the car at work. (Even that is against the rules but I would be willing to fight them over it. My car, my property, my gun, my CCW) I don't go into post offices because I can't carry there. Mailbox's ETC. is good enough. My thinking behind this is that I could get off 5 shots if I needed to and then get the hell out. It's just me that I am responisble for.

    If I am going out with my kids, I want maximum protection and will carry all I can. 2 guns, extra clip, extra rounds for BUG, knife. If poop goes down, I have to be able to protect all 4 kids and may not be able run away as easily so I am at maximum capacity. My 3 older ones know that if I yell to get down, they get down quick and cover their ears. We practice it at home. LoL. They will be watching tv and I will yell it at the top of the stairs and they will hit the floor. It's a good drill.

    Wow... sorry. I rambled. Let me summarize.

    Alone - BUG only
    Kids - Everything I can carry.
    There are 2 sounds in the world that strike more fear than any others. A click when you should hear a bang and a bang when you should hear a click.

  13. #27
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    I remember "Duck and Cover" from the fifties in grade school. Wow! It was scarry but fun. That's how I feel when I practice with the BUG once in a while. It would be scarry if I ever really needed it, and if I did, I would hope I was ducking under cover at the time.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

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