Range Report #19 -- CZ P-01 9mm

This is a discussion on Range Report #19 -- CZ P-01 9mm within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; RANGE REPORT #19 for the CZ P-01 9mm April 5, 2008 Last post was for Range Report #9 , so it has been awhile. Long ...

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Thread: Range Report #19 -- CZ P-01 9mm

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Range Report #19 -- CZ P-01 9mm

    RANGE REPORT #19 for the CZ P-01 9mm

    April 5, 2008

    Last post was for Range Report #9, so it has been awhile. Long hiatus, the past year. Have been dealing with some health issues (bum hip/leg). Went to the range a number of times, but each session was short-lived and didn't hold much excitement, either in terms of the few magazines' worth or issues of any sort.

    Until today, that is. In short ... Houston: we have a problem. Probably a broken part in the trigger/hammer linkage, somewhere, but I won't know until my gunsmith has reviewed.

    Reliability -- Well, nutz. Total rounds fired prior to today was up to 3700, given another 10 range sessions over the past year. Not many rounds fired, but it has so far maintained perfect functionality across the year. Since purchase in July of 2006, including today, the tally is as follows: eleven (11) failures in 3756 rounds, for a 99.71% reliability rate, but that means six outright failures in 56 rounds today.

    That doesn't include the worst problem: the flat failure of the trigger/hammer connection to operate. It's a DA/SA pistol. But basically, when the trigger is pulled, the hammer doesn't move. Oops. Not good. See below.

    • Goal Today -- A light day of shooting. Intention was to put a dozen magazines through, plus having a friend kick the tires for feel and ergonomics. A died-in-the-wool Glock shooter, so there's no risk there. Ha! Crummy weather, so the focus is on basic accuracy and just enjoying the shoot.
    • Initial Cleaning -- Full field strip and clean with CLP Break-Free. Fully stripped and cleaned all magazines, which slicked up the followers nicely (though they still need replacing). Spent a long time cleaning out every nook and cranny. Hosed it down with aerosol CLP, as well. Nicely wiped down, then re-lubed where appropriate. Smooooooth.
    • Shots -- 56 attempted shots, with 50 fired and 6 failures to fire. Went up to 100 pulls of the trigger, noting another ~40 failures of the trigger to move the hammer properly. Not good. All rounds were Remington UMC (yellow box) JHP 115gr.
    • Trigger Action -- While smooth, for whatever reason the trigger decided, today, to divorce itself from the hammer. Strange. Let's see if I can explain:

      • Basic problem: trigger often does not move the hammer. Occurs irrespective of magazine, type of bullets, whether at half-cock or full-cock.
      • At first, I had to do a double-take, as I wasn't certain that I saw what I had just seen. Yes, it happened. Then, again and again. It's easily repeated. I spent 20mins cycling through the variations, in disbelief.
      • Situation: Magazine loaded with 14 rds. Cycle slide, to chamber the first round, at which point the hammer is cocked. Either drop the hammer to half-cock via the decocker, or leave the hammer at full-cock. Pull the trigger in an attempt to fire the chambered round.
      • Symptoms:
        1. With nearly every pull of the trigger, it fails to correctly engage the hammer.
        2. Occasionally, a pull of the trigger causes the hammer to move from full-cock to half-cock.
        3. Occasionally, a trigger pull will cause the half-cocked hammer to fully fall.
        4. In a situation where the trigger fails to engage several times in a row, it's possible to keep cycling the trigger a dozen times without actually engaging the hammer, when at a random time the hammer will engage and fire the chambered bullet.
        5. No apparent difference in "catching" the hammer based on pulling the trigger a bit differently, slow/fast, pulling it slightly to one side, etc.
        6. Being a DA/SA pistol, the first pull of the trigger should, at times when the hammer is fully dropped, or at half-cock, fully engage the hammer and fire the chambered round. It no longer reliably does this.
        7. Being a DA/SA pistol, the SA pull of the trigger should, whenever the hammer is fully cocked, fully release the hammer such that the hammer fully falls and fires the chambered round. It no longer reliably does this.
        8. It's the strangest thing I've seen. It feels as though the linkages in the frame are all moving smoothly. It feels like the linkages are somehow not catching on the hammer. I'm not speaking of the sear's "release" point, which might explain why a hammer would release at far too low of a trigger weight. But this is 100% failure to engage, at times when it fails, with a random engagement once it does decide to "catch." Strange.

    • Ejection -- These babies could put out an eye at 2yds, still. Reliable, strong ejection such that all cases landed within a ~1' circle on the ground. Nice to see that the springs are all healthy and strong.
    • Cycling -- Perfect and smooth ... uh, except where the trigger/hammer problem happened.
    • Aim -- Getting better. Easily able to do mid-speed 3" groupings at 7-10yds. Easily able to stay within a hand's span when cranking up the speed. Am getting used to the sights and smoothness, with each session. I still need to aim a bit low and left, at the shorter distances. It's dialed into 25yds zero, hence shorter requires shooting a bit low. The issues with aiming left do, after all, appear to be flinching the trigger work (dang it!).
    • Jams/failures -- 11 failures to fire over 56 rounds attempted, then another ~40 failures to cock/drop the hammer during repeated testing. That's ... uh ... well, pretty darned bad. Something broke or is disastrously wrong. No can use, now.
    • Reliability -- Sucks badly, today. Something broke, methinks. Have contacted the gunsmith and am awaiting a reply. Likely, won't know anything until he's had the opportunity to tear into it, to find the damage.


    I don't know enough about the internals of the CZ P-01, in terms of how the trigger/hammer linkages and springs work together. Something isn't right. I am hoping it's simply a broken spring or small part. Up to today, the gun has been nearly perfect. Good enough to bet my life on. Any gun can have a problem. I'm betting it's a simple hardware failure of a part. Disconcerting, since I had begun to think this gun had a big, red "S" tatooed inside the magazine well.

    No photos, today. It was raining and fairly cold, which nearly turned a friend into a Pop-Sicle. Much enjoyed sitting down to a hot latte, afterwards, to think through the events with the P-01.

    More soon, once the problem is found.

    EDIT: I can repeatedly get the trigger to fail to engage. Sitting doing "dry-fire" exercises, the trigger feels like it's supposed to catch on something, but then doesn't. It's not the same feeling as when a sear has been given too much stone. It feels as though a linkage has broken, somewhere, and is failing to engage. Though, I am wholly unfamiliar with the internals of that assy on the P-01. Viewed from the rear of the slide, you can see a pull of the trigger moving the little gizmos just to the right of the firing pin surface, but the hammer won't move. Fiddle with it enough, then at some point the hammer will engage once or twice. But then it's soon back to the original problem: failure to "catch." Go figure. I'm at a loss.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; April 6th, 2008 at 03:12 AM. Reason: info on dry-fire tests
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    VIP Member Array ExactlyMyPoint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    No photos, today. It was raining and fairly cold, which nearly turned a friend into a Pop-Sicle. Much enjoyed sitting down to a hot latte, afterwards, to think through the events with the P-01.
    Let's be accurate, he was turned into a frozen cucumber.
    Preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse or Rapture....whichever comes first.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exactlymypoint View Post
    Let's be accurate, he was turned into a frozen cucumber.
    I say Pop-Sickle ... you say cucumber. The white fingers were a dead giveaway, I'll grant you that. Warmed up yet?
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    As an owner and carrier of both a P-06 and P-01 I look forward to seeing what the gunsmith says. Please keep us posted.

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    Member Array jongle's Avatar
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    I'm with archer: I also carry a P 01 and would like to know what caused the trigger problem. Could the folks at CZ offer any help?

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    Member Array Moondo's Avatar
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    If you have any questions regarding a CZ, Mr. Angus Hobdell is your guy... Welcome to the Ghost Holster Experience

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Am still waiting to get it reviewed by the gunsmith. Unknown cause(s), at this point. Once the problem has been found, I will come back to update this thread.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    re: Issue with trigger failing to move hammer

    The problem appears to have been identified. (See above.)

    Apparently, it was simply a loose screw. Not me, no. Internally, in the area that holds both the magazine release spring and the trigger bar that drives the hammer. After a simple tightening, it went back to it's same, old, great reliability.

    Angus Hobdell's got it in his mitts, right now, so he's giving it a thorough going over. I've asked about how to avoid such things in the future, what precautions to take, etc. Hopefully it'll be wrapped up soon without anything else being found. It would break my heart if some real damage were found.

    More soon ...
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array ExactlyMyPoint's Avatar
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    Does that mean the next time we go to the range, I can shoot it for real??
    Preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse or Rapture....whichever comes first.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exactlymypoint View Post
    Does that mean the next time we go to the range, I can shoot it for real??
    You never know.

    It's still at the gunsmith, so we'll see how it goes. Whatever needs fixing will get fixed, so it should be in great shape when it comes back. Unknown when that will be, but it shouldn't be too much longer.

    Tell you what: if you bring your son and that brand spankin' new Beretta, then I'm sure we'll be able to arrange something.

    In plain terms with can both understand ...

    case b92fs:
    brought: czp01=true.
    forgotten: if asknicely then czp01=true else czp01=false.
    refused: czp01=false; akzkm=false; 870pUSSS=false; m1carbine=false.
    otherwise: dunno=true.
    endcase.

    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    VIP Member Array ExactlyMyPoint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    In plain terms with can both understand ...

    case b92fs:
    brought: czp01=true.
    forgotten: if asknicely then czp01=true else czp01=false.
    refused: czp01=false; akzkm=false; 870pUSSS=false; m1carbine=false.
    otherwise: dunno=true.
    endcase.

    Spoken in terms only a software engineer would understand.
    Preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse or Rapture....whichever comes first.

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    Member Array Bline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post

    case b92fs:
    brought: czp01=true.
    forgotten: if asknicely then czp01=true else czp01=false.
    refused: czp01=false; akzkm=false; 870pUSSS=false; m1carbine=false.
    otherwise: dunno=true.
    endcase.

    Wow a CASE statment on a CCW forum... sheesh
    In God we trust, everyone else keep your hands where I can see them.

    Rights are like muscles: If you don't excersise them they slowly disappear.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Range Report #20 -- CZ P-01 9mm

    RANGE REPORT #20 for the CZ P-01 9mm

    June 21, 2008

    This is intended to be an ongoing history of working my new CZ P-01 9mm compact pistol at the range. I will track the number of shots, jams/failures, goal while at the range, general comments on ergonomics and performance, and cleanings ... over the life of the pistol, from new. Each ~500rds or so, I will come back and post further comments as to performance, what I'm trying to achieve at the range sessions, how the gun's parts are holding up, how recent gunsmithing changes are working, and so on.

    Hopefully, someone will find this useful, either when considering purchase of a P-01 or as a reference for reliability.


    Gun: CZ P-01 9mm compact pistol. 28oz forged aluminum frame w/ steel slide, decocker, no safety, Browning-style tilt/lockup, plastic guide rod (though I've got a stainless FLGR now); 14-rd magazines.

    Purpose: Daily concealed carry.

    June 21, 2008 -- 20th range session since original purchase.

    Note: Recent problem resolved, in which a screw loosened in the magazine release spring area, which then caused the trigger bar to fail to move the hammer at all. Deadly problem, but easily resolved. While it was in the shop, I had them give it the once-over.


    • Goal -- Validate that the gunsmith's attentions completely corrected the "trigger bar" problem, and to get back into the swing of things with the CZ P-01. It has been too long. Second goal was to ensure exactlymypoint couldn't break it, as he seems to think he's been doing, lately.

    • Initial Field Strip and Cleaning -- Cleaned with CLP, cleaned barrel with patches, then lightly oiled all mating surfaces. Squeaky clean.

    • Feel -- Wonderful, as always. The P-01 is a joy to shoot. Light recoil, very little muzzle flip, points naturally, hits target at point of aim.

    • Grip -- Still a bit large for my hands, but I've gotten used to it. With the "bite" provided by the custom Omega ebony grip panels, the gun is easy to hold and fire.

    • Shots -- 6 magazines of Remington UMC FMJ "range" rounds, plus a couple magazines of DoubleTap JHP 124gr rounds. That brings the total to 3756 + (8x14) = 3868 rounds fired since purchase. Distances were all at ~6-9yds or so.

    • Aim -- (I shoot left handed.) Quite a few fliers, but then I'm out of practice with the P-01. POI just a tad low/right of POA, which has been the case since purchased.

    • Cleaning at Range -- None, given how few rounds were fired.

    • Jams/failures -- Not one problem. No cycling, feeding, ejection or other problems. The ejected rounds could take an eye out, though, with how crisply and far they eject, but that's about the only "issue." Smooth as a good single-malt. Aaaahhhhhhh. Of course, not many rounds were fired, today.

    • ExactlyMyPoint-O-Meter -- Not a chance. Not one single failure induced by him, despite his worst fears. Jinx is officially non-existent. Yaaaaaay!

    • Cleaning -- After the session, field stripped and cleaned all surfaces with Break Free CLP, including patches through the barrel, magazine lips. Lightly oiled friction surfaces. It's time to replace all the magazine followers and springs, plus the main recoil rod and spring.



    The only issues I have with the gun are minor ergonomic ones.
    • Magazine Release -- Having knocked down the edges, it now fits well. Trouble is, the surface wasn't checkered, leaving it slick to the finger's touch. Bad, in a situation needing to quickly eject the magazine, if it slips. Time to order a new mag release button, but to get more specific about how little to knock down, then to ensure the surface is checkered again.

    • Thickness of Grip -- Having smaller hands, I'm all for reducing the circumference of the grip. I can easily achieve this by simply removing a bit of the rear of each grip panel. They will still fit, but they'd be tighter into the gun.

    • Stippling of front strap and back strap --This would make it perfect, I think. The grooves on the front strap of a stock P-01 are vertical, believe it or not. That's not conducive to the greatest amount of control. Stippling or "golf balling" would be just the ticket.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    I have enjoyed reading your range reports.

    Just out of curiosity, an estimate of how many "dry fire" trigger pulls have you done up to the point of the loose screw?

    3700 rounds for a carry weapon is in retrospect, quite a lot. That combined with dry fire pulls, that gun has had quite a workout before it's first internal malfunction.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Just out of curiosity, an estimate of how many "dry fire" trigger pulls have you done up to the point of the loose screw?
    Well, some would argue I've still got a screw loose, but that's another discussion altogether.

    Hmmm ... well over 2000 dry fires, total, I'd say, since new. Somewhere along the line, I lost track of the exact number of these. That's nearly 6000 "fires," give or take.

    I did a large number when I first bought it, then put ~1700 rds through it prior to sending to the gunsmith for tuning and an action/trigger job. Haven't done much dry fire work, lately, though I expect to continue that since the gun has now made it back from the smith's scan of the loose screw issue.

    3700 rounds for a carry weapon is in retrospect, quite a lot. That combined with dry fire pulls, that gun has had quite a workout before it's first internal malfunction.
    Yes and no. Many guns have an issue now and then. It's inevitable, if a gun is worked hard.

    Mine is. I put about two-thirds range rounds through it, and about one-third carry rounds. Those are stout, being the DoubleTap 9mm JHP 124gr +P. On the mag release screw, I now know what to look for. It's simple to adjust and lock down again, should it ever back out. I wouldn't be surprised if this were the only real functionality problem I ever experience with the P-01. We'll see.

    To keep things humming along, it's now time to polish up the stainless guide rods, again (as they're getting a bit scuffed); replace the recoil spring; replace all the followers and mag springs.

    As for running a gun hard, I had a Browning BDM 9mm semi-auto through the 1990's and put nearly 40K rounds through it. It was the single most-reliable gun I've ever shot extensively, bar none. The last 10K rds had zero issues of any sort, and the 10K rds prior to those had nearly zero issues. By any standard, that's pretty darned good for a gun that had not seen a gunsmith since new. It had begun to feel a tad loose and "relaxed," but I'm positive this contributed to its reliability. A further 10K rds (to 50K total) would surely have seen some of the little internal springs give out.

    Remember the BDM? It was one of the last "wonder 9's," making it to market just ahead of the AWB, which effectively killed it. Well, that and its funky design. I loved it. Indestructible. Nearing 40K rds, I ended up selling it to finance another purchase, partly 'cause I could not find anyone who wanted to work on it. Have since acquired another one and am eagerly punishing it to get it to the point where the last one was. And I still can't find anyone to work on it. *sigh* Gun work is tough, you know?
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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