Black Powder for carry?

Black Powder for carry?

This is a discussion on Black Powder for carry? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I live in Michigan. Land of 10,000 potholes in roads, and gun laws that ...well... stink. Their conceal carry is a farce One must first ...

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Thread: Black Powder for carry?

  1. #1
    Member Array Darth AkSarBen's Avatar
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    Black Powder for carry?

    I live in Michigan. Land of 10,000 potholes in roads, and gun laws that ...well... stink. Their conceal carry is a farce One must first complete a gun safety course then apply for the ccw permit. Any pistol you wish to buy must first be pre-approved through the local Sheriff Office, then you buy the weapon and take it to the Sheriff Office and they "safety inspect" (reads - REGISTER) it to verify it's safe??? Brand new gun from the factory and they need to safety inspect it? Me thinks there is more to it than that. Handguns cannot be loaned out to family members or friends. the little card reads "[B]

    It appears that my wife or daughter would be breaking a law to shoot an intruder with this pistol *that's registered to me*.

    Anyway, one of the things I noticed about their laws is that black powder and their replicas are exempt from the CCW law and the safety inspection.

    "Section 2 (MCL 28.422) and 9 (MCL 28.429) of Public Act 372 of 1927, the concealed weapons law, do not apply to antique firearms. MCL 28.432 now says that purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm is not be subject to the licensure requirements under section 2 (purchase permits) or the requirements that a pistol be subject to a safety inspection conducted by the local police department under section 9."

    So, just wondering if anyone else carries a black powder pistol for Concealed Carry? This is the law as I quoted verbatim from www.mcgro.org/mcgro/d_ccwfaq.asp and it is my understating, as this is presented that I can carry a .36 Colt replica, with an additional cylinder or two, and not be subject to the CCW requirements, except that I must respect the no weapons zones and those business that post "no weapons" on their door.

    Thoughts?
    Vern
    http://Taurus45ACP.com
    My wesbsite with many pro-gun links.
    Carry Taurus 24/7 Pro in .45 ACP


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    ...Because obviously black powder is safer than modern ammunition?

    I don't think your wife or daughter would be prosecuted 'for using your pistol' in a legitimate case of self defense.

    I think choosing black powder over a modern weapon is a bad idea and you'd be much better off by following the laws (even if they are a bit stupid.)

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    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
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    A black powder pistol may still be considered a "deadly weapon" and I'm pretty sure if a LEO caught you concealed, you will be in for a really hard time.

    Black powder and primer caps are nowhere near as reliable as metallic cartridges....

    If you wanted to try an angle, you could get a blackpowder gun and plop in a "metallic" cylinder, but that may not be the best approach either.

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    Member Array roadrash's Avatar
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    What defines an antique firearm?I do not see where the law mentions anything about black powder.Maybe you can carry a first generation SAA in a shoulder holster,and handload the 45LC cartridges with fffg.

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    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadrash View Post
    What defines an antique firearm?I do not see where the law mentions anything about black powder.Maybe you can carry a first generation SAA in a shoulder holster,and handload the 45LC cartridges with fffg.
    Ditto, Roadrash beat my about .5 of a second...

    So according to the law, what exactly makes a firearm and antique?

    IMHO replica does not equal antique. However, my 1944 Ithaca IMHO is an antique.

    I'd try and get better clarification on what is "antique" and what is just antiquated.

  6. #6
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    Typically the accepted "official" definition of an "antique" is an object 100 years old or older.

    This "100 Years Or Older" definition dates back to the U.S. Tariff Act of 1930 which defined true antiques (back then) as having been made prior to 1830.
    After 1830 machine production became common...prior to 1830 most ornamental objects and works of art were crafted by hand.

    My best guess is that any genuine antique firearm 100 years or older would be covered by that (above) law that you posted.

    A replica black powder firearm would be classed as a modern copy of an antique firearm and so would absolutely still be highly illegal for non-licensed carry.
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    As much as I like shooting black powder, I would never consider one as a carry weapon. Too many things can go wrong with it. Powder can get wet, bad purcussion cap, clogged nipple, and unless your using wonder wads you stand a chance of a chain fire. While some of MI's requirements may be asinine it beats what your neighbors in IL and WI have to live with.

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    Member Array DBWOODS6721's Avatar
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    In Michigan Your Wife Or Daughter Can Use Any Wepon As Long As It Is Legal Carrying Black Powder In Less It Is Okshooter Said At Lest A 100 Years Old Is Not A Antique

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    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    I wouldn't recommend a black-powder for CCW. (you could always move to a free state )

    Quote Originally Posted by DBWOODS6721 View Post
    In Michigan Your Wife Or Daughter Can Use Any Wepon As Long As It Is Legal Carrying Black Powder In Less It Is Okshooter Said At Lest A 100 Years Old Is Not A Antique
    Spell-check, punctuation, and grammar are our friends.

    welcome to the forum.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

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    If you study the Black Powder era you will find many instances of Black Powder being unreliable. That is why knives were so big in those days.

    Take a look at a real Bowie Knife from the 1830's. The thing is a freaking huge sword compared to what we carry today for a knife. As guns got more reliable, knives got smaller.

    I love Black Powder metallic cartridges, but wouldn't even consider using them for self defensive purposes, and they are 100X better than a Black Powder Pistol.

    Biker

  11. #11
    Member Array Darth AkSarBen's Avatar
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    Antique defined from MI

    Quote Originally Posted by roadrash View Post
    What defines an antique firearm?I do not see where the law mentions anything about black powder.Maybe you can carry a first generation SAA in a shoulder holster,and handload the 45LC cartridges with fffg.

    Ok roadrash, QKShooter, et al, This is the Michigan Definition of Black Powder and Antiques

    " The law now imports the definition of "antique firearm" from Section 231a of the Michigan Penal Code. Under that act, "antique firearm" is defined to mean (1) a firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica of such firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898; or (2) a firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."

    I wrote this, in it's exact wording, as I got it from the site.

    So, no you cannot take a black powder revolver and retrofit it to use metal cartridge (it is forbidden for this definition)

    Notice how it stated.... "or replica of such firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898; " ? Which would absolutely mean a modern day Remington or Colt reproduction made here or in Italy.

    Their definition of antique firearm, not mine.


    Or, perhaps a Colt manufactured before 1898 that took 32-40 ammunition (or some such) that is no longer available. Always could hand load. Been there, done that.

    And, yes I know the unreliability of black powder and percussions. I've shot, built black powder before back in Nebraska. This state, Michigan, is a deer hunting state that uses black powder and/or shotgun slugs nearly to it's exclusive use. I cannot use my .270 here in Allegan County as it is forbidden. Only in some of the more northern counties are hi-power rifles, like the 270 and the like allowed. Personally I would think a 22-250 or a .243 would be a whole lot less threat to neighbors over a 50 cal mini ball or a rifled slug from a 12 ga shotgun. At least they would pretty much disintegrate if they hit a tree branch or other object.

    Back on the subject at hand, though, it really does appear that those black powder pistols are exempt from the standing of the concealed weapon law.
    They're just bulky and heavy is all. But, certainly deadly as many Civil War soldiers attested to.

    I'd like to move to a free state, but I'm a 55 year old winemaker for a local vineyard/winery and it would be hard to replace my income by moving and re-selling what we have invested in our place. One nice thing. We live on 10 acres and I step out my door and shoot in the back yard all the time. No hassels, no worries. My range is about 10 feet away. Shot a coyote that was in our back yard a while back. He was wandering in pretty close, about 20 yards from the house and close to the chicken house. Chickens are fine.
    Last edited by Darth AkSarBen; July 6th, 2008 at 03:05 AM. Reason: correction
    Vern
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    Carry Taurus 24/7 Pro in .45 ACP

  12. #12
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    That's interesting.
    I personally would still get some qualified legal advice before I chanced carry.

    Hey...maybe one of those percussion derringers from Dixie Gun Works would fit the bill.
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    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    All I can say is, "Keep your powder dry."
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth AkSarBen View Post
    I live in Michigan. Land of 10,000 potholes in roads, and gun laws that ...well... stink. Their conceal carry is a farce One must first complete a gun safety course then apply for the ccw permit. Any pistol you wish to buy must first be pre-approved through the local Sheriff Office, then you buy the weapon and take it to the Sheriff Office and they "safety inspect" (reads - REGISTER) it to verify it's safe??? Brand new gun from the factory and they need to safety inspect it? Me thinks there is more to it than that. Handguns cannot be loaned out to family members or friends. the little card reads "[B]

    It appears that my wife or daughter would be breaking a law to shoot an intruder with this pistol *that's registered to me*.
    Well, the carry of a black powder firearm is subject to the same laws as modern firearms.

    I have a replica of an antique pistol. Is it necessary that this pistol be registered in Michigan? Is it necessary that I obtain a Michigan Concealed Pistols License?
    MCL 28.429 No, antique pistols made before 1898 and replicas of antiques that use black powder, matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system do not need to be registered. The pistol is still subject to all concealed pistol licensing laws.

    MSP - Michigan's Concealed Pistol Law - FAQs
    As for your family using a firearm registered to you, in your own home, for defense, I seriously doubt this meets the definition of "loan out" as written.

    I'll check and see what I can find, with the usual caveat that I am not offering legal advice of any sort.

    Matt
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  15. #15
    Member Array Darth AkSarBen's Avatar
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    Another thing I notice in their laws definition is that of the BB gun. ...."A smoothbore gun that shoots only BB's, .177 cal or less is not considered a firearm."
    Now, if I could just design a BB pistol that shot 10 shot bursts of BBs out at say 2800 fps (Supercharged BB gun), and could hold around 200 BBs that would be a nice little defensive BB gun. LOL

    10 in a burst at that speed would create some serious bodily damage on the bad guy, that is for sure.
    Last edited by Darth AkSarBen; July 6th, 2008 at 11:30 AM. Reason: spelling
    Vern
    http://Taurus45ACP.com
    My wesbsite with many pro-gun links.
    Carry Taurus 24/7 Pro in .45 ACP

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