July 15th, 2008 05:57 AM
Does this gun exist?
Okay, I'm pretty sure it doesn't but just in case I've missed something during my extensive internet and gun range searches I'll ask here as well.
My situation is this:
I can not buy sub-compact size (short grip, 3" barrel) guns (think J-frames, Kimber Ultra Carry, Glock 26, SA XD Sub Compact, CZ RAMI etc) due to local laws which pretty much prevent anyone getting a "pocket size" gun.
So I'm restricted to Compacts such as Glock 19, SA XD Compact .45 (4" barrel), CZ Compact & PCR & P-01, Commander size 1911's etc.
Now, on to my preferences:
9mm. I'm a firm believer in shot placement so I'm comfy with 9mm and it's cheap (yeah, living on a student budget here).
To get as small as possible I'd really prefer a single stack 9mm. Yeah, this is where most guns fall off the list. I've gathered that perhaps there exist some 1911's such as the Kimber Pro Carry II which has 9 rounds of 9mm and a 4" barrel which would suit the bill. I think SIG also makes a single stack 9mm compact but from what I've gathered the current single stack 9mm compact is a bit too small for local laws. The size restriction is that the gun must NOT fit a box the size of 5,1"/13cm by 7"/18cm. .
Here comes the preference that drops the rest of the guns from the list: I really do prefer no manual thumb safety. I really, really prefer guns such as Glock, Springfield Armory XD, CZ PCR & P-01 etc. which are just "point and click", no need to bother with extra switches when things get heated.
It would also be great if it was a current production model and not very rare.
So far I've settled for a Sprinfield Armory XD 9mm Service Model and had a mate do a "grip chop" on it so it's now the size of the .45 Compact. If only they made it in single stack...
So, around a 4" barrell, compact grip, single stack 9mm with NO manual thumb safety.
Does such a gun even exist?
July 15th, 2008 07:08 AM
Maybe I'm missing something but, have you checked into the various model offered by Kahr?
July 15th, 2008 07:17 AM
A sig single stack, S&W 3913 or DAO 3953 or S&W MP9 compact or full size but both of these a double stack but with interchangeable grips it works for most people.
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July 15th, 2008 07:27 AM
Sig makes 2 single stack 9mm guns, the P239 and the P225. The P225 may be out of production but used models are plentiful as it was widely used in Europe by the German police, who are selling them and replacing them with something else.
The P239 is a nice gun (I have one) but may just fit in that 5.1 by 7.0 inch box you mentioned. The P225 is a little too big for the box, as it measures 5.2 inches high by 7.1 inches long. It has no safety, but rather a decocker. Here is a photo of a P225:
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July 15th, 2008 07:58 AM
Whoa! I haven't checked out Kahr because I didn't know about them! Thank you!
Originally Posted by RickH
I'll check out all suggestions but SIGs are veeery expensive here (think $2000,00) and there really aren't used ones, not those models anyway.
I'll have to start looking into Kahr, they seem very close to what I'm looking for, single stack, 9mm, compact, and no external thumb safety.
What's their rep? Can anyone here tell me how they shoot and handle? Say, compared to a SA XD or a CZ 75B or a Glock?
July 15th, 2008 08:13 AM
I don't know if the Kahrs will fit the size requirements, they are to small. They do have a "tactical model" that is larger. I cant say enough good things about the Kahrs, but I do have to warn that they are not wise beginners guns.
I would think that Sig P6 would be easy to find in Europe, but then again, I've never look for one there. I think your best bet is the G19.
July 15th, 2008 08:25 AM
Unfortunately I checked them out and saw that even the TP9 model is only 6,5 (a bit over 16cm) long and 4,5" (about 11,5cm) tall so it's a bit too small and it's the largest of the lot (9mm's).
Originally Posted by SIXTO
Out of interest, why wouldn't they suit a beginner?
Mind, I did have a FTE's with the XD during my first couple of visits to the range due to limp wristing but I've managed to fix that problem now.
Alas, it seems the XD with the grip chop done to it is the smallest so far even though it's a double stack (=thick).
Are the SIGs noticeably thinner?
July 15th, 2008 08:49 AM
HK makes the P2000, P2000SK, USP Compact. Since all are thicker than 1", they should pass the test you indicate.
Taurus Millennium Pro is fairly compact, too, but thick enough to fail that size test.
How about any mid-sized (Commander or Champion length) 1911? Springfield, Colt, Para Ordnance and many others make them. Check the Para CCO, or Colt Combat Commander, or ...
And Kahr, which someone mentioned. The K9 and P9 are wonderfully sized, fit the hand nicely, are reliable and tough.
I have a CZ P-01, myself, and love it. Works very well for IWB or OWB carry.
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July 15th, 2008 08:52 AM
Try the Handgun Database at genitron.com - one of the sort methods may give you some suggestions.
July 15th, 2008 09:22 AM
All of those HKs, Kahrs, Taurus' are all too small as they fit the dreaded box = no go.
Originally Posted by ccw9mm
The P-01 and the PCR are very close to what I'm looking for except that they're double stacks = quite thick and hence not much of an improvement over my XD Compact.
The 4" or commander sized 1911s are also pretty close with just one 'but' albeit a major one: they all seem to have manual thumb safeties. I'm not very comfortable with them. Now if they made a gun like the Kimber Pro Carry II 9mm with a similiar mechanism as, say, a Glock or the XD, or maybe a deckocker model, THAT would be optimal!
Does anybody make 1911s with a decocker? Or any 1911 that has no manual thumb safety? Or is the manual thumb safety such an integral part of the 1911's system that it can't be left out?
July 15th, 2008 10:15 AM
1911's are single action... a single action gun with no safety would be a problem to me.
Too bad the Kahr isn't big enough. Great little guns, nice trigger. A little too nice, in fact. I'm sure that's why someone mentioned that they weren't 'beginner' guns... DAO, no safety, and a very smooth, fairly light trigger. Great for shooting, but you must be able to keep your finger off the trigger!
The Sig P225's are available here as surplus police guns, coming from Europe, and selling for less than $300. I'm surprised that they're not available there...
Perhaps a Smith? 908 comes to mind (DAO with a de-cocker), may be too small, I don't know.
The XD is a good solid gun, it may be a little thicker than you'd like, but I've never heard anyone say, following a gunfight, that they wished they hadn't had so much ammo...
Liberty is an inherently offensive lifestyle. Living in a free society guarantees that each one of us will see our most cherished principles and beliefs questioned and in some cases mocked. It's worth it.
July 15th, 2008 10:22 AM
Except for the 4" barrel, you have described the S&W 3953. The 3953 has a 3.5" barrel.
The 3953 is an exceptional single stack CCW 9mm, with a revolver like DAO trigger. IMHO it doesn't get any better in a DAO pistol. Good luck! Regards 18DAI.
July 15th, 2008 10:49 AM
A small lightweight Kahr is going to amplify any limp wristing tendency short sight radius and a break in period all cause frustration to those who don't understand this process.
Originally Posted by M65
The Sig 239 or 225/P6 are thinner than the XD/Glock, but not by a lot. I'd rather have the extra ammo. Both the Glock and XD carry really well, almost as well as a single stack with added benefit.
I would imagine that Glock parts are easier to get in Europe, but again, I've never shopped for gun stuff in Europe.
July 15th, 2008 10:52 AM
Yeah, I was thinking about a DA or a DAO-type 1911 but I guess such a thing doesn't exist.
Originally Posted by cmidkiff
The Kahrs looked very much like what I'm looking for, pity they were a bit too small. The trigger wouldn't be a problem since I'm not that much of a beginner and I'm pretty neurotic when it comes to gun safety.
All the S&Ws mentioned are, alas, too small.
Anyway, I'll stay with the XD until something noticeably more suitable comes along. Afterall, it fits my hand and does the job even though isn't "The Ultimate" gun for me but I suppose every gun is a compromise in one way or another.
Thanks for the suggestions though!
Addendum: if anyone comes accross a gun like the one I described, please let me know.
July 15th, 2008 11:30 AM
Para makes DAO 1911 style pistols.
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