Is Cocked And Locked Dangerous?

This is a discussion on Is Cocked And Locked Dangerous? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; An excellent article on the safety of 1911's http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/cockedandlocked.htm He spoke my own opinion more eloquently than I can....

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Thread: Is Cocked And Locked Dangerous?

  1. #1
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    Is Cocked And Locked Dangerous?

    An excellent article on the safety of 1911's

    http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/cockedandlocked.htm

    He spoke my own opinion more eloquently than I can.
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

    "I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
    ~George Patton

    DE OPPRESSO LIBER

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    VIP Member Array maclean3's Avatar
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    Syd's site is always packed with good info. Hadn't read that article yet though, thanks for the heads up. Interesting article about the Para LDA as well, it might very well bring more shooters into the 1911 fold.
    Jack

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    Thumbs up The 1911

    The 1911 pistol is extremely safe.
    Cocked and Locked (Cond.1) carry is very safe.
    With knowledge and familiarity comes Peace Of Mind.

    I agree that any novice that is building a 1911 from parts or doing critical modifications to His/Her 1911 Style Pistol should have the pistol & F.C.S. checked by a competent gunsmith before they shoot or carry it.

    Even though it is NOT necessary ~ a person can buy a holster with a leather retention strap that fits between the hammer & the firing pin as an additional "Feel Good" safety.
    That will make the holstered pistol at least look less ominous to the uneducated eye.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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    As a new 1911 owner but long time shooter, I feel safe carrying condition 1. I did carry condition 3 around the house to get used to this gun though. I found right out of the box I can hit with my 1911, while my other pistols took some practice to really tighten my groups up.

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    Senior Member Array AirForceShooter's Avatar
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    Why do people keep asking this?

    AFS
    Gun control is hitting what you aim at

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirForceShooter
    Why do people keep asking this?

    AFS
    I think QK nailed it, they haven't the "knowledge nor familiarity."
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

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    +1 Fellow Airmen, and I am cocked and locked as we speak.
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

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    I think this question has to be split into two different parts.

    Is it safe? YES without a doubt. But remember the primary safety as always is the shooter him/herself.

    The next question should therefore be: Is the condition One carry of any SA handgun, the 1911 in particular likely to give rise to secondary criminal charges of negligence and or concurrent civil charges by the nature of the weapon itself? That depends. Mostly it depends on the jurisdiction and political climate. An ambitious prosecutor looking to make a name for himself might find it easier to support a more nebulous charge of negligence (manslaughter) and depend on the ignorance of a jury to make the case against the gun rather than the shooter or circumstances. I have seen this done many times here in Miami-Dade county over the last 25 years. Many folks won't know to have an "expert witness" to dispell gun myths and even if they do know, can't afford to have Mas Ayoob or one of the other heavyweights come down and defend the "gun." Juries are chosen for unifomity in ignorance.

    My point is, if you know you live in a liberal, anti-gun jurisdiction, why take the chance with a 1911 SA? I practice what I preach. Although I have two fine 1911's, I no longer carry them for exactly this reason.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    An interesting point, Ex Soldier. I just re-read the manual for my Kimber, and I would be concerned about this coming out in court:

    5. Safe Carrying Condition: Never carry this piston cocked, loaded and ready to fire as this practice could easily lead to an inintentional discharge. Do not carry a loaded gun with a live round in the chamber while wlaking, running or corssing any obstacle, where theris an possibility of slipping and falling as this could lead to a possible unintentional discharge. (p. 6)
    "So, Mr. Defendant, why were you carrying this gun in a manner forbidden by the operator's manual? Were you in such a hurry to shoot someone you could not read and follow the manufacturer's directions?"

    This is the kind of thing that makes sleazy plaintiff's PI attorneys salivate.....

    For the record, I do not think Cocked and Locked is an unsafe means of carry - I am presently carrying my Kimber Warrior in that very condition.....

    Matt

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    OD*
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    Unfortunately, an unscrupulous prosecutor looking to make a name for him or herself can make that argument of any firearm.

    Matt,

    You'll find something similar in most owners manuals.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

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    VIP Member Array maclean3's Avatar
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    Actually if the safety is engaged the gun isn't "ready to fire." Unfortunately your owners manual fails to make that clear so there's a grey area in the scenario you describe. I imagine that was probably intentional on Kimber's part, based on the advice of their own lawyers.

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    I sure you're correct, most owner manuals state not to chamber a round until you are ready to fire.

    More CYA.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

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    Yes I've those too. Now, I normally care combat tupperware, so the safety is mostly keeping the trigger covered and using my head.
    First, how does somebody know that you had to rack the slide, unless you tell them? Secondly, by default when you're packing, aren't we by default ready to fire? I think a fairly shart lawyer could eat the other arguments for breakfast.
    Dave

    “The highest obligation and privilege of citizenship is that of bearing arms”. General George Patton—US Army

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    Wink Gun Design v. Stupid Lawyer Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by OD
    Unfortunately, an unscrupulous prosecutor looking to make a name for him or herself can make that argument of any firearm
    True but more so for the single actions like the 1911. The key is the take up and trigger break. While we may know that our gun is set for a perfectly acceptable 4 pound break, the prosecutor is going to have each and every juror dry fire the piece in the jury box. To the ignorant and uninformed, that thing is going to go CLICK real easy...and the prosecution is going to crow: Ladies and gentlemen! See how EASY that was? I submit that the defendant did not know...could not know.... that in the heat of this extreme stress situation this weapon was going to discharge and kill...yada yada yada....

    But that argument is much more difficult to make in the case of a double action firearm, with the exception (MAYBE) of a ParaOrdnance LDA. Even then, I think part of the solution is the amount of time it takes to take up the slack and break the trigger. So, excepting the PO as a "grey area" the other DA's and revolvers fired in DA mode will make it very clear by the trigger takeup in force and time that the shot was deliberately tripped...

    Circumstances will NOW dictate whether the shoot itself is good or not which is as it should be. I just prefer not to give some prosecutor a chance to practice Stupid Lawyer Tricks to make a name for himself and oh yeah...ruin my life.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    I don't know it seems that most people are trying to regulate the 1911 to combat purposes only. Well, this just in buddy, I will carry whatever, I need to defend myself most effectively. This gang members show no mercy and have will continue to rob with machetes and shotguns. I will arm myself with whatever will help me to quickly reduce the threat.

    Just imagine: It's a late winter night the wind is blowing as you exit the local grocery store. You hate to come out late night but the wife just had to have some ice cream. Well the store was packed due to the holidays and you are parked in a some what dark corner. When a guy comes up far off some what and ask you for directions. Then out of no where his buddy shows up machete in hand, slicing through the air , and his partner a pistol. You cocked and locked, is this your thinking: Man, do I risk pulling out and shooting the guy with the SA 45 or do you star trek yourself back to my safe and strap on the 38. Not, you unholster, get on target and swipe safety, and proceed to introduce them to 90yrs of history. Carry on 1911, Carry on.
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

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