4 + 1 Syndrome?
This is a discussion on 4 + 1 Syndrome? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have read this in Massad Ayoob book and also in magazine about a 4 + 1 syndrome ( for lack of a better word) ...
August 9th, 2008 07:06 PM
4 + 1 Syndrome?
I have read this in Massad Ayoob book and also in magazine about a 4 + 1 syndrome ( for lack of a better word) which means that when you chamber a round and shoot 5 rounds at a target the first round will invariably shoot different from the other 4. Sometimes Massad will dismiss the errant "flyer" when looking at the true picture of group size on a particular pistol and ammo. He has mentioned that it seem more prone on the less expensive pistols.
Any take on this 4 + 1 syndrome? Would you be better off just shooting into a dirt bank with the first round and then shoot the 5 rounds for a better score of 5 on the target? What about the loading of the first round using the slide lock button on the side to feed the first round, rather than rack the slide back with your hand and letting to to feed the first round.?
Is there some sort of seating problem with rounds fed differently from the action of auto-loading upon shooting?
August 9th, 2008 07:32 PM
I do believe that lockup between barrel and slide is more positive after the pistol operates from recoil. Less expensive pistols I would think, have more tolerance between fitted parts such as barrel and slide in which the subsequent lock-up of the barrel after recoil may force a tighter fit than manually feeding and chambering the first round. Pulling the slide back to manually chamber a round in this case may well be better than using the slide release. Maybe you could keep a barrel of sand at the back door or in the garage and before you went out carrying your pistol, you could just shoot the first round into the barrel and then be on your way with confidence on your shoulder. Okay...forget that. I'm a rifle shooter also, and generally a flyer from a rifle is due to a cold barrel. Subsequent shots tend to 'settle in' once the barrel is warm. I don't know how much if any correlates to the subject of 'flyers' concerning pistols.
August 9th, 2008 07:49 PM
I do believe that lockup between barrel and slide is more positive after the pistol operates from recoil.
Interesting thesis Ram Rod. I hadn't thought about that possibility in the past
Less expensive pistols I would think, have more tolerance between fitted parts such as barrel and slide in which the subsequent lock-up of the barrel after recoil may force a tighter fit than manually feeding and chambering the first round. Pulling the slide back to manually chamber a round in this case may well be better than using the slide release.
Another interesting thesis sir.
I've not any experience in the above except for one gun, my 1982 Milspec SA 45 govt model which has 30K+ through my hands. Observations from shooting this one with a dot on it have shown that thoroughly cleaned and "good to go" every round was in the same ragged hole from about 25-33 feet on paper during practice for the matches. The slide stop was used to chamber the first round, the rest of the mag through the guns own operation.
At combative distances, I don't think if there is a difference at all between the first and subsequent shots it's going to make any appreciable difference in the outcome. I don't shoot with tiny little groups in mind to begin with, so it's probably more important for bullseye shooters than ccw carriers.
It's only a syndrome if you let it be.
August 9th, 2008 07:51 PM
I was wondering about the warmth of the barrel myself. Warmer barrels have a bit more slack about them than a cold barrel. But, if that were the case, then the more expensive pistols would also be affected.
August 9th, 2008 07:58 PM
Could it be that the errant round is the first shot that helps you find your bearing?
You shoot the first shot where you think it should be to "find out where you are at" and then the next four are where you want them.....
Just a thought.
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."- Robert A. Heinlein
August 9th, 2008 08:04 PM
Actually, a warm barrel has less slack than more, because it is expanding due to the heat from being fired as a result the tolerances are less, not more.
Its pretty common for any semi -auto to string the first shot due to the variance in chambering. The best way to chamber is to use lock open the slide, insert magazine, then use the slide stop to chamber the first round. This is the most consistent way to do it because that is the way that the mechanism operates when fired.
Where one gets into trouble is when they ease the slide forward to chamber a round, or even gently racking the slide back enough to see if one is chambered and then easing it home. It will show up when shooting a group.
Some guns, once they are broken in with several hundred rounds will show improvement in the first shot. Others will not, but its nothing new, its always been that way.
I've seen old wore out government issued .45's be a full foot off with the first shot, the others seem to do much better.
As Brownie noted,at normal self defense distances, it shouldnt be enough to matter. If one was shooting 25 yard Bullseye targets for score, it will be.
hecks...the next step towards registration and confiscation.
AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
By WhoWeBePart1 in forum Open Carry Issues & Discussions
Last Post: September 21st, 2010, 06:03 PM
By P95Carry in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
Last Post: June 28th, 2007, 02:39 PM
By Miggy in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
Last Post: March 30th, 2007, 01:40 AM
By P95Carry in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
Last Post: December 12th, 2005, 08:30 PM
By Fjolnirsson in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
Last Post: September 27th, 2005, 11:38 AM
Search tags for this page
4 1 massad ayoob
4 1 pistol shooting syndrome
4 1 syndrom
4 1 syndrome
4 1 syndrome in 22lr
4 1 syndrome in shooting?
4 1 syndrome massad ayoob
4 1 syndrome pistol
4 1syndrom handguns what is
4 plus 1 syndrom ayoob
carrying without a chambered round massad ayoob
what is a 4 1 syndrome in grouping
Click on a term to search for related topics.