9mm vs. a .45 as a carry gun - Page 8

9mm vs. a .45 as a carry gun

This is a discussion on 9mm vs. a .45 as a carry gun within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ExSoldier Okay, I'll resist the urge to speculate as to the political party of the guy in your example (losing half a ...

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Thread: 9mm vs. a .45 as a carry gun

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Okay, I'll resist the urge to speculate as to the political party of the guy in your example (losing half a brain & staying alive).
    Chicken. That would be the one that does not require well developed cognitive abilities
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

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    Let's look at a little history on the 45 and why it was deploped, and how it was tested.....

    .................................................. .................................................. ...

    In 1901, the U.S. Army bought about 1000 Luger pistols for troop trials, where they were immediately put to use in field tests. However, the standard .38 Long Colt-chambered M1889 series revolvers of that period were not acquitting themselves well enough for the troopsí liking during campaigns like the Philippine Insurrection and the feeling carried over to the 7.65mm Lugers. But in Germany, the Wehrmacht (Armed Forces) liked the Luger pistol, but not the caliber. Military ordnance officers asked for a more powerful round, so in 1902, Luger changed the bottlenecked case to a tapered straight wall design and substituted a larger 9mm-diameter bullet into the new case, creating the 9mm Parabellum round. Across the Atlantic the same year, Colt marketed a variation of the Model 1900, the Model 1902 Military, which used a slightly shortened firing pin. The new firing pin acted like a safety, to prevent accidental firing since the pin itself was shorter than the channel it rested in was. Only a solid strike by the pistolís hammer overcame the inertia of the firing pin to fire a round. While the U.S. Army purchased just a few evaluation samples, the Model 1902 sold very well on the civilian market until production ended in 1929.7

    In April 1903, the U.S. Army asked to trade fifty (50) 7.65mm Luger pistols for fifty (50) of the new 9mm version (Georg Luger himself brought the new samples into the U.S the next month) and troop trials began again.8 In 1904, the Swiss military and the German Kriegsmarine (Navy) adopted the new 9mm Luger. Four years later, the German Heer (Army) adopted it as the Pistole-08, or P-08, which went on to become one of the most produced and copied handguns in military history.


    (Authorís Note: The following footnoted paragraphs are based on the article, The Holes in Stopping Power Theory, written by Leon Day. The 1904 live animal and medical cadaver testing may give concern to those who think it was, according to todayís standards, both "barbaric" and highly unscientific. But in the interest of furthering the study of military arms, the testing results are basically presented as Mister Day previously wrote them. Some may find these paragraphs objectionable, but the full story must be told without embellishment and without withholding any pertinent data, no matter how gruesome it may be...)


    In 1901, President Theodore Roosevelt appointed Brigadier General William Crozier as Chief of Army Ordnance. In 1904, Crozier assigned two individuals, Captain John T. Thompson of the Infantry and Major Louis Anatole LaGarde of the Medical Corps, to investigate and recommend which caliber should be used in any new service handgun. At the Nelson Morris Company Union Stockyards in Chicago, Illinois, they tested several types of handguns, calibers and bullet styles against both live cattle and medical cadavers.10 Before continuing, some definitions about the types of animals and the bullet types used in the testing are needed:

    Animal Terms and Definitions


    Definition
    Definition

    Bull Mature male bovine
    Cow Mature female bovine
    Steer Male bovine castrated before maturity
    Stag Male bovine castrated after maturity

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Bullet Terms and Definitions

    Term Abbrv Definition
    Grains Grs.
    A measure of weight where 7000 grains equals 1 pound.
    Feet Per Second FPS
    A measure of velocity in feet per second.
    Foot-pounds FPE
    A measure of power of a fired bullet.
    Lead Round Nose LRN
    Lead bullet with a rounded nose profile.
    Full Metal Jacket FMJ
    Lead bullet almost completely covered in copper.
    Flat Point FP
    Bullet having a blunt nose.
    Hollow Point HP
    Bullet with a cavity in front for rapid expansion on impact.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    The first day of live animal testing involved shooting eight head of cattle with rounds fired at selected target areas while timing the events. The time scale in the tables below is shown in minutes and seconds. The testing went as follows:

    No.
    Caliber
    Animal
    Time(mm:ss)/Results

    1
    .476 Eley
    Weight: 288 grs.
    Style: LRN
    Velocity: 729 FPS
    Energy: 340 FPE Stag
    Weight: 1200 - 1300 lbs. 00:00 - Two shots into lungs; rounds impacted 4" apart.
    04:00 - Animal still on feet.
    05:00 - Dead.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    2
    7.65mm Luger
    Weight: 92.5 grs.
    Style: FMJ-FP
    Velocity: 1420 FPS
    Energy: 340 FPE Stag
    Weight: 1200 Ė 1300 lbs. 00:00 - Shot through lungs left to right.
    00:30 - Dead.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    3
    .38 Long Colt
    Weight: 148 grs.
    Style LRN
    Velocity: 723 FPS
    Energy: 191 FPE Stag
    Weight: 1200 lbs. 00:00 - Shot through lungs; animal jumped around.
    02:30 - Shot through lungs; animal jumped around.
    03:20 - Shot again; staggered 30 second.
    03:50 - Dead.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    4
    .476 Eley
    Weight: 288 grs.
    Style: LRN
    Velocity: 729 FPS
    Energy: 340 FPE Stag
    Weight: 1300 lbs. 00:00 - One shot through intestines.
    02:00 - One shot through intestines again.
    03:10 - One shot through intestines again.
    06:10 - Shot twice in the head.
    07:15 - Shot in the ear.
    08:15 - Shot behind the ear.
    08:15+ - Killed by four hammer blows to head; no round reached brain.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    5
    .38 ACP
    Weight: 130 grs.
    Style: FMJ-RN
    Velocity: 1107 FPS
    Energy: 354 FPE Steer
    Weight: 1100 lbs. 00:00 - Shot through lungs.
    01:00 - Shot through lungs again.
    01:35 - Shot through lungs again.
    01:35+ - Killed by 4 hammer blows to head.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    6
    .45 Long Colt
    Weight: 220 grs.
    Style: LHP
    Velocity: 700 FPS
    Energy: 239 FPE Cow
    Weight: 1000 lbs. 00:00 - Shot through lungs.
    01:00 - Shot through lungs again.
    02:00 - Falling; shot twice in abdomen.
    02:00+ - Dead.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    7
    .45 Long Colt
    Weight: 250 grs.
    Style: L-FP
    Velocity: 720 FPS
    Energy: 288 FPE Bull
    Weight: 1300 lbs. 00:00 - Shot through lungs.
    01:00 - Shot through lungs again.
    02:00 - Shot through lungs again.
    02:35 - Shot in abdomen; fell, then got up.
    02:45 - Shot in abdomen; fell; got up; fell, but tried staying on its feet for 70 seconds.
    03:55 - Killed with hammer.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    8
    .455 Man-Stopper
    Weight: 218.5 grs.
    Style: L-HP
    Velocity: 801 FPS
    Energy: 312 FPE Stag
    Weight: 1250 lbs. 00:00 - Shot through lungs.
    01:00 - Shot through lungs again.
    02:10 - Shot through intestines.
    03:15 - Shot through intestines again.
    04:15 - Killed with hammer.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Neither Thompson nor LaGarde could have been very satisfied with the first dayís results, so for the second day of testing, they changed the testing procedure completely, deciding to shoot the animals as rapidly as possible until either they fell or ten shots were fired. The second day of testing went as follows:

    No.
    Caliber
    Animal
    Results

    9
    .45 Long Colt
    Weight: 250 grs.
    Style: L-FP
    Velocity: 720 FPS
    Energy: 288 FPE Cow
    Weight: 950 lbs. Shot through lungs; fell after sixth shot.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    10
    7.65mm Luger
    Weight: 92.5 grs.
    Style: FMJ-FP
    Velocity: 1420 FPS
    Energy: 340 FPE Cow
    Weight: 950 lbs. 00:00 - Shot through lungs three times.
    01:00 - Jam; shot five times in lungs. Reloading break. Shot twice. Killed with hammer.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    11
    9mm Luger
    Weight: 123.5 grs.
    Style: FMJ-FP
    Velocity: 1048 FPS
    Energy: 301 FPE Cow
    Weight: 1100 lbs. 00:00 - Shot twice through lungs.
    01:00 - Jam; shot six times in lungs. Reloading break. Shot twice in abdomen and twice in lungs. Killed with hammer.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    12
    .476 Eley
    Weight: 288 grs.
    Style: LRN
    Velocity: 729 FPS
    Energy: 340 FPE Bull
    Weight: 1100 - 1150 lbs. 00:00 - Shot six times through lungs.
    Dead after sixth shot.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    13
    .455 Man-Stopper
    Weight: 218.5 grs.
    Style: L-HP
    Velocity: 801 FPS
    Energy: 312 FPE Bull
    Weight: 1150 lbs. 00:00 - Shot five times in lungs.
    00:30 - Shot three times in lungs.
    01:30 - Shot twice in lungs; animal began to fall, then shot twice in abdomen.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    During the cadaver testing, the bodies were hung by the head and were shot at from distances of 3 yards, 37.5 yards and 75 yards. The target areas were fleshy areas, bone ends and bone shafts.11 If a round struck a fleshy area, only the hollow point rounds produced a bare minimum of sway, but if a bone end was struck, all the rounds showed similar results, though the .455 Man-Stopper and the .476 Eley were just slightly better. When a round struck a bone shaft, the sway produced enabled Thompson and LaGarde to give each round a subjective measurement; in short, they watched the body sway and simply gave it a number value for comparison purposes without setting a standard to compare it to. The table below details these subjective measurements:


    Caliber
    Value

    .38 Long Colt, L-RN 50


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    .38 ACP, FMJ-RN 60


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    .30 Luger, FMJ-FP 60


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    .30 Luger, FMJ-FP tip filed 60+


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    .38 ACP, SP 70


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    .38 ACP, FMJ-RN filed 70


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    9mm Luger, FMJ-FP 80


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    .45 Long Colt, L-FP 80


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    .45 Long Colt, L-HP 85


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    .455 Man-Stopper 87


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    .476 Eley, L-RN 100


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Based upon the data they gathered, Thompson and LaGarde stated, "the Board was of the opinion that a bullet, which will have the shock effect and stopping effect at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver, should have a caliber not less than .45". But they also said, "...soldiers armed with pistols or revolvers should be drilled unremittingly in the accuracy of fire" because most of the human body offered "no hope of stopping an adversary by shock or other immediate results when hit."14

    (Author's Opinion: Thompson and LaGarde did what any soldier would do when carrying out orders from a superior where an inconclusive answer would be intrepeted as failure: they gave a reasonable recommendation even though the data did not support the conclusion. In short, they LIED to at least give some results. )

    In 1905, Colt asked John Browning to improve his Model 1902 Military. As his first task, Browning first developed a .45 caliber round firing a 200-grain bullet. Later that year, Colt unveiled the Model 1905, a .45 caliber pistol quite similar in appearance to its precursors.

    Trials were scheduled for September 1906, but some delays caused by the sample .45 cartridges provided by the Ordnance Department forced the Secretary of War to issue a Special Order dated 28 December 1906 signifying the U.S. Army was ready to begin testing handguns again and created a list of requirements for the new handgun to meet.15 The main requirements, of those put forth, were as follows:

    Caliber not less than .45.
    Magazine holding no less than six rounds.
    Bullet weight not less than 230 grains.
    Trigger pull not less than six pounds.


    .................................................. .................................................. ...

    Thompson was involved in the testing and adoption of the Springfield M1903 rifle. He became famous for tests he conducted that resulted in adoption of the AS caliber as the official U.S. Army handgun cartridge. Various calibers were tested on cadavers. Later, in the slaughterhouses of Chicago, he conducted tests on beef cattle to determine the best cartridge. From these tests it was determined that the .45 was the only acceptable cartridge for a handgun and thus leading to the adoption of the Colt AS M1911 automatic.

    .................................................. .................................................. .


    (Substantially plagiarized from articles found at The Sight's M1911 .45 ACP Page)

    The 1911 .45 ACP was designed by John Moses Browning. John Browning first experimented with self-loaders in 1889 when he modified a Winchester 1873 lever-action to work as an autoloader by using the action of the gases at the muzzle.

    During the same time frame that John Browning was working on many of his 128 patents, a tribe of warriors, the Moro, were giving the U.S. Army a very hard time in the Philippines. To prepare for battle, the Moro would bind their limbs with leather, take narcotics, and use religious ritual to gain an altered state of consciousness, this turned them into virtual Supermen. The .38 Long Colt pistol round the U.S. soldiers had simply would not stop the Moro. Of note is the fact that the Krag rifles the U.S. issued were also barely more than useless.
    Remembering the experience with the Moros and after extensive testing on animals and human cadavers, , determined that the Army needed a .45 caliber cartridge to provide adequate stopping power. At this time Browning was working for Colt and had already designed an autoloader pistol, around a cartridge similar in dimension to the .38 Super. Hearing of the Armys request for designs for a new handgun, Browning re-engineered this .38 autoloader to accommodate a .45" diameter cartridge that he designed and submitted the pistol to the Army for evaluation.

    ..........

    While trying to quash a revolt in the Philippines in 1904, American troops discovered that their .38-cal. revolvers were not very effective against the frenzied attacks of Moro tribesmen. The call went out for a handgun with "stopping power," and in 1911, the U.S. issued the Colt .45-cal. automatic to its men. Now, after 70 years of service, the Army plans to retire the legendary .45óas well as the .38-cal. revolver óand replace them both with a new 9-mm model.

    The .45 may go unmourned. Hefty (3 lbs. when fully loaded) and cursed with a nasty recoil, the pistol was as easy to handle as a howitzer. For decades Army instructors would joke: "Fire seven rounds and if the enemy is still coming, throw it at him " On the other hand, it rarely jammed and, if you did manage to hit something there would not be much left of it. Carried mostly by officers, aviators and military police the weapon has proved so durable that the Army still draws upon its cache of 1.9 million .45s bought by the end of World War II.




    .................................................. .................................................. ..

    Based on the experience with the Moros and extensive testing on animals and human cadavers, an Army Ordnance Board headed by Col. John T. Thompson (inventor of the Thompson sub-machine-gun) and Col. Louis A. La Garde, determined that the Army needed a .45 caliber cartridge to provide adequate stopping power. In the mean time, Browning who was working for Colt, had already designed an autoloader pistol, around a cartridge similar in dimension to the .38 Super. When the Army requested designs for a new handgun, Browning re-engineered this .38 autoloader to accommodate a .45" diameter cartridge of his own design with a 230 gr. FMJ bullet, and submitted the pistol to the Army for evaluation.

    .................................................. ..................................................


    The .45 ACP Cartridge was conceived in the early days of the 20th Century. In 1904, the Frankford Arsenal and commercial manufacturers were asked by the U.S. Government to develop a .45 caliber pistol cartridge. Winchester and Colt, working together, developed a response released in 1905 as the ".45 Automatic Colt" matched to a new Colt pistol chambered for the cartridge.


    The cartridge was designed by John Browning of Colt, but the real influance over the choice of cartridge for the new Army pistol was Gen. John T. Thompson, (yes, the same Thompson as in Thompson submachine gun), a member of the Army Ordnance. Thompson insisted on a real "man stopper" pistol, following the poor showing of the Army's .38 Long Colt pistols during the Philippine Insurrection (1899-1902).
    .................................................. .................................................. .

  3. #108
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    "Then his goldfish died."

    I love it.
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  5. #109
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    That's a lot of (mostly anecdotal) stuff there, Tankdriver, and it might actually be appropriate...if it were 1904. Bullets and the firearms that shoot them have changed a bit since then.

    LongRider - as far as I've been able to tell (and I've done a fair bit of research on the matter), there is absolutely no truth to the idea that the 5.56 was developed in order to wound rather than kill. In combat, it is often effective to simply put a guy down and make his buddies take care of him, but this was NOT the intention, but rather a by-product.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    JD
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  7. #111
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    Carry what you like, shoot best, own, have with you. A .22 short is better than nothing.

    Keep your powder dry

  8. #112
    Senior Member Array Hivoltage's Avatar
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    WOW...this is my first ever 12 page topic being the OP'er
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  9. #113
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    The .45acp is the finest pistol caliber invented. Big, slow and hits with authority. The 1911 pistol is the finest fighting handgun, bar none. Thousands of GI's will testify to its abilities. Perfect.

    That being said, my 9mm HiPower is the epitome of pistol craft. Nothing comes close as a fighting handgun. High capacity, perfect grip and other ergonomics make it the best. 9mm bullets are fast and powerful with little recoil. Perfect.

    Of course, nothing can match my .38cal 442 snubbie. Size, design, trigger function make this the absolute best. So easy to slip into the pocket and carry everywhere always. No reason to be without it. Reliable and effective. Perfect

    But then again, what pistol did I carry last night when going out to dinner but my .32cal Walther. Flat, compact, trusted action makes this pistol so easy to carry. Accurate fire makes this effective. Pocket perfection.

    Uhh, what was the original question?

  10. #114
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    No doubt the .45 packs more of a punch. I have a 9mm, .38 but carry my .40, more rounds and ammo is a bit cheaper to practice with the a .45.
    Going for stopping power alone I would go with my 870 but that would be tough to conceal in the So. Fla wear.

  11. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hivoltage View Post
    If the .45 has the best stopping power,and the best penetration, why even bother with a 9mm pistol?

    I am only asking for fun, as I have both calibers, a Glock 36 and a Kahr PM9, and I carry both. Just wondering why folks have a 9mm if the .45 is the Big Dog of bullets. I can hide my .45 as well as my 9mm. Again, this is not a caliber war, just wondering why you dont carry the big dog?
    I have read tons of these posts regarding the age old debate regarding which caliber is better for self-defense 9mm or .45 acp. Every post I read completely misses the point when deciding what is best for you. Most of these posts reference what police or military use. And since law enforcement or military use them it must be the best caliber for you. This is not how you should be deciding which caliber to use for your specific purpose. Obviously most readerís Googling this particular question are not law enforcement or military. If youíre law enforcement or military you find yourself running towards assailants or the enemy to engage in a gun fight back and forth. For the private citizen, who are only looking to defend themselves or family you most likely have a different mindset. Many of these posts donít talk about what is best for the everyday private citizen who only wishes defend themselves or family in a sticky situation. So letís answer this question for the majority of the readers who would be Googling 9mm vs 45 acp to figure out which caliber is better for self-defense. First we need to establish which of the following two camps you fall into.

    Scenario: Youíre at the mall with your family and an active shooter goes postal in a department store.

    Camp 1
    Youíre in camp 1 if youíre the type of person whoís first reaction is to move away from the situation if you can safely and will only draw their firearm if itís their last option to save themselves or family. Not saying these types of people are better or worse. Some people just place a higher value on not wanting to risk the possibility of their kids growing up without them around.

    Camp 2
    Youíre in camp 2 if youíre the type of person who will not move away from the situation but rather move towards the assailant to take him/her out in order to save othersí lives and not just yourself. These are the types that are willing to die to save random strangers. Not saying these types of people are better or worse.

    Some individuals may be in either camp depending where they are at that point in life. It doesnít mean youíre a better or worse person sitting in camp 1 or 2, but before you pick your caliber you need to be brutally honest about which camp youíre currently in. I used to be in camp 2 most of my life before I had kids. Now Iím in camp 1 since I have small children. Once their grown I will most likely be back in camp 2.

    Now that you know which camp youíre in letís talk about caliber.

    If youíre in camp 1 you are better served choosing .45 acp. Let me explain. If youíre only drawing your gun at the last moment or right before the assailant discovers your position then you donít need to be concerned about accuracy. Youíre usually going to be within 15 feet, give or take. In fact you probably donít have time to line up your sites taking aim. Usually youíre reverting to intuitive style shooting. Intuitive shooting is pointing your gun in the general direction of the assailant and pulling the trigger (intuitive shooting takes lots of practice to become accurate). Close quarterís defense. Since youíre unloading a .45 acp round into the assailant youíre not going to need to shoot more than once or twice since the wound will be massive and the .45 has incredible knock down power. It thumps really hard since itís a slow round at 850-900 fps and a much larger round. Center punch will most likely knock them clean off their feet. If youíre using a 9mm at 15 feet, give or take, the round most likely will pass through since itís a much faster round traveling at 1,200-1,300 plus fps. With that said you donít need a high capacity clip due to the devastation of the .45 round. If the assailant is on drugs and shot with a 9mm they can keep coming at you if not hit in a vital organ. Even though modern ballistics of the 9mm round have become much more advanced in recent years, so has the advancement of the .45 round. With that said the advanced 9mm round still will not match the damage and knock down of the advanced .45 round. If the assailant is hit with a .45 on drugs they most likely wonít be getting up for a second round.

    If youíre in camp 2 you are better served choosing a 9mm. Since you will most likely be shooting from more distance you will want the higher accuracy and higher capacity of the 9mm. Itís a combat style weapon. This is why military and law enforcement use the 9mm as side arm of choice. They are protecting citizens.

    Since I am a family man now, I personally conceal .45 acp. If you are still having a hard time deciding which camp you are in and which caliber to choose then settle for the best of both worlds at 40 caliber which may start a whole different debate.

  12. #116
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    Bullet verses windshield?

    I read in a different part of a forum about the Berlin Christmas Market attack where the guy ran over the people with the truck if somebody would have been armed if so if they had A9 millimeter would it penetrate the windshield to take out the driver chances are it would not penetrate the engine block but what about the air tanks for the air brakes probably would take too long to lose enough air for the brakes to engage so the question is what a 45 ACP be better 4 penetration of the windshield or the air tank just a thought

    Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

  13. #117
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    Split the difference. Carry a .40. Most of the ammo capacity of a 9mm. Most of the incapacitating power of .45 ACP (and actually at least as much if not more in shorter barrel pistols.)

    And why did someone resurrect an eight year old thread?

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    Yeah, a pre-obongo thread, on the age old question. Cool. After much thought and reading and as my tagline says about bullet placement; I have decided the 147 gr +P 9mm is the best of all worlds insuring the best bullet weight, speed, and accuracy a gun can offer unless going with a .22; then the rest is up to me to do my job of placing said bullet in the right location to stop the BG. As said somewhere else in this thread; most BG will stop once hit by any bullet. It's more of a psychological thing that the bullet physically stopping them unless they are hit somewhere in the central nervous system taking that choice from them.

    If we could all be guaranteed a hit to the area immediately in and around the sinuses a simple .22 would stop and kill the BG instantly. As we all know by now; even those who practice weekly such as police officers and soldiers, in the heat of the moment we lose at least 50% of our accuracy which also why I like the 9mm a bit better; it allows me more chances to hit my target in the heat of the moment.

    In truth, if we could train and practice shooting and have someone spray water in our ear with a squirt gun or something else distracting, we would all be better shots in the heat of that moment but that's not how most of us practice and train so we do what we can and think ahead having made certain decisions to fight or flight ahead of time so in that instant we have already made up our mind on how to proceed and hope we can afford the lawyers afterward if we live through the experience.
    The three most important components of stopping power are: bullet placement, bullet placement, bullet placement.
    -Evan Marshall

  15. #119
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    An eight year old thread, and a silly argument that will never be settled.

    Closed.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow.
    End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."



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