.380 on Guns and Ammo TV - Page 2

.380 on Guns and Ammo TV

This is a discussion on .380 on Guns and Ammo TV within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by AzQkr Who would ever need more than 10" of penetration once breaking the clothing boundry? FBI now states they want no less ...

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Thread: .380 on Guns and Ammo TV

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array FlyboyLDB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Who would ever need more than 10" of penetration once breaking the clothing boundry?

    FBI now states they want no less than 12" and want up to 18" of penetration for their agents in the field. They choose their ammo based on the above.
    G&A did state that law enforcement needs the ability to shoot through cars/windshields. Where the typical non LEO would not need that ability

    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    "No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary"
    I would request that you post a link to your report as this is simply not true. Many LEOs have been killed or wounded from over penetration. I had posted a while back links to just this fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    "tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough."[/B]
    Brownie
    Did the BG have armor on? I would bet it was placement - not a penetration issue.


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    A good study in Handgun Wound Factors Effectiveness by the FBI can be found in the Firearms Tactical Site. It is the first doc in their wound ballistics section. Its 19 pages but a good read.

    There is another good FBI doc they put out when they were introducing the 10mm. A good primer for folks new to H/Gs.

    Wound Ballistics
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  3. #18
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  4. #19
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    I'd rather use a .380 than harsh words. If it's all you got then I say carry it. That said, I don't own one. My edc is a .357.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  5. #20
    Member Array dthowell's Avatar
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    a .22 will kill someone every-time if you shoot in the right spot. I carry a .380 as a backup and my wife carries a .380. with the right bullet it will do the same job as my .357. just a little less intimidating.
    So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!

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  6. #21
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    I have a .380 I pocket carry at time's when something bigger is hard to conceal. This was a good read. Thanks Guys.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array sjones's Avatar
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    somebody correct me if I'm wrong but haven't the people in europe been using .32's,.380's for ages?9mm is about as big as they use over there.I wonder how many people have been killed with those calibers.I carry a lcp when I can't carry my 9mm.I believe if I was to put 2 or 3 in someones chest it would discourage them real quick.I'm talking up close,under 10 feet.sj

  8. #23
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    FlyboyLDB,

    G&A did state that law enforcement needs the ability to shoot through cars/windshields. Where the typical non LEO would not need that ability

    The FBI's report of 12" of penetration as a minimum isn't in regards to hard targets, it's directly related to human threats. I would not rely on some G+A gun writer to know more than the feds through their own research. In fact I haven't read gun rags for the last 10 years as rag writers always are suspect to personal opinion where the feds report is based on real data collected.

    FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - FirearmsTactical.com follow that link to the first hyperlink pdf thats listed as "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness."

    I would request that you post a link to your report as this is simply not true. Many LEOs have been killed or wounded from over penetration. I had posted a while back links to just this fact.

    I didn't catch your link to that information, but if it's not from the NYC SOP9 reports or a federal agencies database, it's probably unreliable. The feds keep some very accurate records of officer involved shootings, and as of 1989, they stated:

    ""No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary"

    Unless things have changed on the streets since then quite dramatically, I'll continue to follow the feds and the SOP9 NYC findings. Their database and statements aren't suspect where objective reporting is concerned like some others findings which are suspect as not being totally objective. I also don't believe anyone would have a database as extensive as the NYC SOP9's or the feds in officer involved shootings. If you are aware of a database by any agency or individual thats more extensive and has covered a longer time frame than theirs, I'd be very interested in your posting it up here.

    "tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough."

    Did the BG have armor on? I would bet it was placement - not a penetration issue.

    Placement would have no bearing on the statement they made about large numbers of officers who have been killed due to a lack of penetration. The rounds either penetrate enough under street conditions or they don't, it doesn't matter where they've hit. The feds really started to rethink penetration needs after the Miami shootout where some of their officers died, and at least one was wounded and one killed after one of their then issued rds didn't get deep enough. They realized they had unfortunately bought into the high speed, lightweight loads based on high energy levels at the time as they relied quite heavily on the Marshall/Sanow findings [ which no professional scientist/forensics ballistician agrees with ]

    SOP9 NYC reports which are fairly extensive and running over 20 years of data from one of the biggest cities in the country with plenty of examples to pull data from over a long time period haven't ever documented an over-pentrating round killing an officer or civilian as of the last time I saw the reports a few years ago. Seems the SOP9 data also mirrors the feds documentation.

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  9. #24
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    After I watched the Trooper Coates(SC Highway patrol video, where he shot his killer,IIRC, 5 times COM with a .357 Mag,who lived and he got shot once with a .22 and trooper died, killer got life in prison) during my academy, I prefer carrying a .45. My dept. requires a minimum of .380 5 shot weapon as off duty carry. Im issued a G21, have bought a Ruger P345 and SP101 for off duty carry. A .380 wouldn't be my choice, but any gun carried when SHTF is better than a gun left at home because its too big to carry. I believe that one should carry the gun with the biggest caliber one shoots well and will always carry. If that happens to be a .380, so be it,just use good ammo.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  10. #25
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    somebody correct me if I'm wrong but haven't the people in europe been using .32's,.380's for ages?

    Most European police agencies used the 32/380 acp ammo until the 1972 Munich Massacre at the Olympics. After that, Germany mandated three companies develop a 9mm pistol as an anti-terrorist pistol/firearm to be adopted by the various agencies [ in Germany at least ].

    Those trials produced the P5 from Walther, the P6 from Sig and the P7 from HK. All three guns were eventually adopted by various W German police entities and they continue to use the 9mm firearms in police duty holsters to this day.

    Some European countries may still use the 32/380's but it's probably fewer than it used to be before the Olympics problems in 72.

    Brownie
    Last edited by AzQkr; September 30th, 2008 at 11:26 PM.
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  11. #26
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    http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

    Read that report from the firearms SSA Urey Patrick, Firearms training unit, Quantico, Va. Specifically page 7 where it's reported that

    "First, our lawyers are unaware of any successful legal action from the injury of a bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject"

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  12. #27
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    While .380 isn't my first choice of calibers when it comes to a self-defense load, I have to side with those that feel that it will normally get the job done and I have no problem with carrying a gun in that caliber. Many people still like to reference as proof of one point or another (even in this thread) the Miami FBI shooting in the 80's and their later evaluation of the different calibers using the available bullets of the time. OTOH, nearly 30 years have passed since that evaluation and there have been quantum leaps in gun and ammo design as well as bullet effectiveness since then. The bottom line for me is how the ammunition I'm using TODAY works, not the FMJ ball or hollow point ammo normally used three decades ago.

    Also, I find it strange that there are so many people who will refuse to carry a particular caliber/gun as a primary self-defense weapon but have no problem using it as a BUG. My opinion, FWIW, is if a gun is good enough to be a BUG it's good enough to be a primary!
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  13. #28
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    Many people still like to reference as proof of one point or another (even in this thread) the Miami FBI shooting in the 80's and their later evaluation of the different calibers using the available bullets of the time.

    I used the feds findings of need for penetration depths only. Their recommendations on minimum depth of penetration that's acceptable to them after a decade of research is only 20 years old.

    The bottom line for me is how the ammunition I'm using TODAY works, not the FMJ ball or hollow point ammo normally used three decades ago.

    I agree, now if you can show me any hollow point bullet commercially available that digs the minimum of 12" recommended in the feds report in 380 today, I'll carry it.

    I carry ball in 32 and 380 as both will dig 12" into vitals reliably.

    I find it strange that there are so many people who will refuse to carry a particular caliber/gun as a primary self-defense weapon but have no problem using it as a BUG.

    I find it very reasonable for people to make the distinction between a BUG's role and a primary sidearms role. For one, the BUG will likely never be used on the street if you run into a SD situation where you need to shoot someone, just the opposite for the primary.

    Brownie
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  14. #29
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    Small calibers used to work better because people were smaller. Have you seen any of the corn (genetically engineered) and beef (hormone saturated)fed farmboys these days. My coworkers son is 15 and is 6 ft 3 in tall and goes 230. A mid twenties version of this kid will be about 6' 5" 290. Try stopping him with a little tiny round. I know, I know, shot placement, but I feel a whole lot better with my 158 grain hydrashocks!
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  15. #30
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    I love my Colt Mustang and it stays with me at all times. It is reliable and works everytime I pull the trigger. Coupled with Hydra Shocks it gets thre job done. Would I rather have something in a larger caliber, sure. But when I can't, its there. With a Done Hume IWB, you never notice it or it a pocket.

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