This is a discussion on .380 on Guns and Ammo TV within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; aren't the feds the ones who gave up on the 10mm and helped create the .40? I find flaw in the report that they would ...
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aren't the feds the ones who gave up on the 10mm and helped create the .40? I find flaw in the report that they would do such a thing if the ballistics are that important to th various fed agencies as the 10mm is far superior in all ballistic departments to the .40 imho
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It was too powerful of a round to be used effeciently. (fast, accurate follow up shots etc......)Originally Posted by chaosrob
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Perhaps Hornady's new Critical Defense Ammo might cause many of us to reevaluate our concern about the adequacy of the 380 round.
Product Spec Sheet: http://www.hornady.com/images/sell_s...al_defense.pdf
Guns & Ammo article: Critical Defense
The first listing for distribution in the retail channel that I've found is MidwayUSA.
Price: $18.49 for 25
MidwayUSA - Hornady Critical Defense Ammunition 380 ACP 90 Grain Flex Tip Expanding Box of 25
The feds criteria for ballistics isn't what they are determining their carry loads from.
They are looking at expansion, clogging in clothing, jackets that stay together through hard targets and more importantly penetration results with the above included.
Brownie
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Savannah Georgia Police gave up the 10 mm for the 40 S&W. Stated that the 10 mm had too much collateral damage.
Also, I am hearing good things about the CorBon DPX 40 S&W round. I do understand that if you ask 100 folks what they prefer, you will get 100 different answers. I will give the Critical Defense a try.
45acp results of several loads showed the following for this load:
Corbon DPX 160gr. Barnes X
Veloc:High:1249/Avg:1207 for the 5" gov model and High:1071 /Avg:1029 for the 4" barreled 1911.
Pene:15 inches for the 5" gov model and 16.1 inches for the 4" barreled 1911.
Expan: Max:0.6465/Avg:0.646 for the 5" gov model for 42.9 % increase in expansion and High:0.646/Avg:0.637 for the 4" barreled 1911.
Too much penetration and not enough expansion with this loading for consideration on the street. The best 45acp loads tested expanded 102% with 13.5 inches of penetration [ the HST2 230 grain loading ]
I wouldn't listen to the hype of the Corbon loads myself.
Brownie
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That's what I use for my .45acp load. federal P45HST2
No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
-Thomas Jefferson
Laws are restrictive but sometimes necessary to maintain a civil society. Rights are nonrestrictive but are always necessary to maintain a free society.
Best penetration from 230 grain bullets from deepest to shallowest 5" barrel:
Federal Hydra Shok 230gr. Pene:14 1/2 inches Not tested in 4 inch.
Golden Sabre Pene: 13 1/2 inches 14 inches
Speer Gold Dot 230gr. Pene: 13 inches / 14 1/2 inches
Win. White Box 230 gr. Hollow Point Pene:13 1/4 inches 14 1/2 inches
Federal Tactical Bonded 230gr.+P Pene:12 1/2 inches 14 inches
Federal HST1 230gr.+P Pene: 12 inches/ 13 1/2 inches
ranger 230 grain Pene: 12 inches 12 1/4 inches
Federal HST2 230gr. Pene: 12 inches/ 12 1/4 inches
Best penetration from 4" barrel
Speer Gold Dot 230gr. Pene: 13 inches / 14 1/2 inches
Win. White Box 230 gr. Hollow Point Pene:13 1/4 inches 14 1/2 inches
Rem.Golden Sabre 230gr. Pene: 13 1/2 inches 14 inches
Federal Tactical Bonded 230gr.+P Pene:12 1/2 inches 14 inches
Federal HST1 230gr.+P Pene: 12 inches/ 13 1/2 inches
Federal HST2 230gr. Pene: 12 inches/ 12 1/4 inches
Win. RA45T Ranger 230gr. Pene: 12 inches 12 1/4 inches
Federal Hydra Shok 230gr. Pene:14 1/2 inches Not tested in 4 inch.
Most expansion from 230 grain bullets from the 5" barrel:
Federal HST2 230gr. Expan:Max: 1.036/Avg:0.9785/ Max:0.882/Avg:0.859
Win. RA45T Ranger 230gr. Expan: Max:0.994/Avg:0.8975 Max: 0.969/Avg:0.896
Federal HST1 230gr.+P Expan:0.878/Avg:0.843/ Max:0.845/Avg:0.835
Federal Hydra Shok 230gr. Expan: High: 0.779/Avg:0.770
Federal Tac Bonded 230gr.+P Expan:Max:0.734?Avg:0.7162/ Max:0.702/Avg:0.696
WWB Expan: Max: 0.733/Avg:0.724 Max:0.703/Avg:0.6935
Speer Gold Dot 230gr. Expan:Max:0.728/Avg:0.713 Max:0.696/Avg:0/690
Rem.Golden Sabre 230gr. Expan: Max:0.721/Avg:0.7085 Max:0.673 /Avg.0.667
Most expansion from the 4" barrel:
Win. RA45T Ranger 230gr. Expan: Max:0.994/Avg:0.8975 Max: 0.969/Avg:0.896
Federal HST2 230gr Expan:Max: 1.036/Avg:0.9785/ Max:0.882/Avg:0.859
Federal HST1 230gr.+P Expan:0.878/Avg:0.843/ Max:0.845/Avg:0.835
Federal Tac Bonded 230gr.+P Expan:Max:0.734?Avg:0.7162/ Max:0.702/Avg:0.696
WWB 230 gr. Hollow Point Expan: Max: 0.733/Avg:0.724 Max:0.703/Avg:0.6935
Speer Gold Dot 230gr. Expan:Max:0.728/Avg:0.713 Max:0.696/Avg:0/690
Rem.Golden Sabre 230gr. Expan: Max:0.721/Avg:0.7085 Max:0.673 /Avg.0.667
Federal Hydra Shok 230gr.-----not tested
185 grain best penetration:
Hornady XTP 185gr Pene:16+inches 16+ inches
Rem.Golden Sabre 185gr.+P Pene: 15 inches 16 1/2 inches
Taurus Hex 185gr. Barnes X Pene: 9 3/4 inches/ 10 1/2 inches
160-165 grain best penetration:
Corbon DPX 160gr. Barnes X Pene:15 inches! 16.1 inches.
Federal Hydra Shok 165gr. Pene:12 inches 12 1/4 inches
Double Tap 165gr.HP Pene:9 3/4 inches/ 10 inches
Best expansion from 185 grain loads 5" barrel:
Taurus Hex 185gr. Barnes X Expan:Max: 0.861/Avg:0.857/ Max:0.851/Avg:0.799
Rem.Golden Sabre 185gr.+P Expan: Max:0.729 /Avg:0.7045 Max:0.707/Avg:0.696
Hornady XTP 185gr Expan:Max:0.579/Avg:0.549 Max:0.510/Avg:0.506
Best expansion from 185 grain loads 4" barrel:
Taurus Hex 185gr. Barnes X Expan:Max: 0.861/Avg:0.857/ Max:0.851/Avg:0.799
Rem.Golden Sabre 185gr.+P Expan: Max:0.729 /Avg:0.7045 Max:0.707/Avg:0.696
Hornady XTP 185gr Expan:Max:0.579/Avg:0.549 Max:0.510/Avg:0.506
Brownie
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Take a look at Double Tap listings for both the 380 and 45. Both come in your choice of FMJ or HP. The 380 gives 200 pounds of pressure at the muzzle from a little Kel-Tec barrel. The 45 will give 520 pounds from a 5" barrel.
These are NOT +P loads. All within SAAMI specs. Low flash powders. Neither one seemed to make any real serious difference in recoil to me.
These are the carry loads in Kel-Tecs and XD-45c.
Highly recommended! Take a look at their web site or Midway.
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Buffalo Bore ammo quotes 280 FT.LBs. from their 100gr. Hard-Cast FN bullet.
They also have a 90 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHC with about 25 ft.lbs less.
Product Line Listing
Anyone try these ?
" Refuse to be a victim, make sure there is a round chambered ! "
Just call me a pessimistic optimist !
U.S. Navy vet 1981-1992
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My EDC is a LCP, I trust that it will do its job if it arises, yes Id rather wear a .45 but the LCP works better for me so far.
Buffalo Bore ammo quotes 280 FT.LBs. from their 100gr. Hard-Cast FN bullet.
They also have a 90 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHC with about 25 ft.lbs less.
Product Line Listing
Anyone try these ?
I load the following in my Walther ppk/s from Buffalo Bore:
Item 27C/20 is a 90gr. Speer Gold Dot
Walther PPK-3.5 inch barrel-----1200 fps
It delivers roughly 270 foot pounds of energy from the Walther and expands to about .55 caliber for a 44% increase in diameter. It's a bonded core bullet and the jacket will not seperate thereby retaining it's weight. Gets 10 inches of penetration in testing.
As I mentioned above, the Corbon dpx doesn't expand enough and consequently has too much penetration. It acts like a ball loading for the most part.
Brownie
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CCW in Florida
In S. Florida where it's perpetually summer, we don't often have the occasion to where coats and such that will cover-up carrying a Dirty Harry hog-leg. While not ideal, the .380 acp guns are perfect for our needs and pack enough punch to get the job done. My wife carries a Model 84BB Beretta Cheetah in her purse that has 13+1 Federal 90 gr. .380Hydra-Shoks on board. She's been taught to neve fire less that three (3) shots at COM and to keep shooting until the attack ceases or the gun goes click. The Ruger LCP I carry is perfect for me because it fits into any pocket available. I especially like it in the side pocket of my cargo shorts. AT 15.4 ounces loaded I hardly even know it's there. It's also loaded with the Federal Hydra-Shoks. The LCP has a rather harsh recoil but is perfect for what it's intended to be. Do a couple of phone book tests with the new .380 ammo and say a 9mm. I think you'll see that they have enough punch to get the job done.
Fear is a reaction.......
Courage is a decision.
FOR GOD, FOR COUNTRY AND FOR BLUE MAX
Blue Max 24, U.S. Army, RVN 1972
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The buffalo Bore rounds mentioned above by Artz and ArQkr look very interesting in their listings. Follow the link shown by Artz.
Anybody out there ever try this stuff in a Kel-tec P-3AT? Notice they give it as +P instead of SAAMI spec pressure like the Double Tap.
The velocity listed from the Kel-Tec barrel works out to 241 pounds at the muzzle which is a lot. This is with the heaviest bullet listed of three weights.
As appealing as this is from the standpoint of horsepower the +P worries me. These are very lightly built guns weighing about 11 ounces fully loaded and either 8 or 9 ounces empty(2nd generation added 1 ounce over the first.) They won't blow up but the heavy pounding might cause failure in some little part or at least it would worry me.
In a larger and more robust design like the Bersa models the Buffalo Bore would perhaps be the best for SD but in the little Kel-Tec I think for now at least that I'll stick to the Double Tap. 200 isn't bad and the extra 20% in power seems like it might be pushing the envelop too much in the tiny gun. Sort of like a low-buck racing team trying to add nitro to the fuel for some quick speed...whoops!
Still, anybody try this?
Array
This is some good stuff!!!
I liked the looks of this stuff so much that I ordered a couple of boxes from Midway today for our .380's. It should perform especially well in our LCP. Hornaday has always made some very good products.
Perhaps Hornady's new Critical Defense Ammo might cause many of us to reevaluate our concern about the adequacy of the 380 round.
Product Spec Sheet: http://www.hornady.com/images/sell_s...al_defense.pdf
Guns & Ammo article: Critical Defense
The first listing for distribution in the retail channel that I've found is MidwayUSA.
Price: $18.49 for 25
MidwayUSA - Hornady Critical Defense Ammunition 380 ACP 90 Grain Flex Tip Expanding Box of 25
Fear is a reaction.......
Courage is a decision.
FOR GOD, FOR COUNTRY AND FOR BLUE MAX
Blue Max 24, U.S. Army, RVN 1972
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