Bersa Thunder .380 ACP or NAA Black Widow .22 Magnum?
This is a discussion on Bersa Thunder .380 ACP or NAA Black Widow .22 Magnum? within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I tried to find the ballistic tables for .22 magnum but couldn't believe what I found... a .22 magnum with a muzzle energy of over ...
November 2nd, 2008 07:26 AM
Bersa Thunder .380 ACP or NAA Black Widow .22 Magnum?
I tried to find the ballistic tables for .22 magnum but couldn't believe what I found... a .22 magnum with a muzzle energy of over 300 ft.lbs whereas the Golden Saber .380 has about 200 ft.lbs. Is this accurate? The rounds I use for SD, 124gr+P Golden Sabers, have a muzzle energy of almost double the .380 round (386 ft.lbs.) If so, I think I'm going with the Black Widow for a CCW.
The .22s are a lot cheaper than the .380 and the gun is a lot smaller. Either one would be easier to carry than my Beretta Px4 Storm but I want small... really small. And if I'm going to get a smaller gun, I don't want to have to pay more for ammo, like with the .380, .32 and .25, all of which are more than 9mm. I also want a cheap gun. I don't want to spend $500, or even $300 on a CCW. Thoughts?
It is to be observed that Right of Self-Defence, arises directly and immediately from the Care of our own Preservation, which Nature recommends to every one. . . , and that this right is so primary, that it cannot be denied on the basis that it is not "expressly set forth.
--- Hugo Grotius
November 2nd, 2008 07:26 AM
November 2nd, 2008 08:09 AM
Im betting the 22mag was shot out of a rifle not a 2 inch barrel
Current collection: Too many according to the wife...
November 2nd, 2008 08:28 AM
I don't know about those ballistic tables and the info that you found, but I carry arms in both the calibers that you mention. The NAA is a great carry revolver. I take one everywhere (even when wearing short pants). I have two of them in .22 magnum. Neither are the black widow, just the standard revolvers. I carry in a front pocket holster. I find the black widow too big for that; don't need a 3" barrel; don't need the sights and the grips (even though I can always purchase them). Its a belly gun by definition. Up close and personal.
The .380 I carry is the colt mustang. It resides in a back pocket holster from our own Kevin (K&D holster's). I have an extra magazine in the other front pocket.
I have come to know what is preached here is gospel. In order to utilize this tool when needed, you have to carry it. Because if you don't carry it, what good is it when you need it. Carry conceal is all about that. Will that 9mm conceal as good as that .380 ? That depends. Most 9mm's are bigger guns (lets use the colt mustang for example). If you are gonna carry it like I do, in the back pocket, will it fit to size like the colt ? Rohrbaugh builds a sweet 9mm, but will you spend the $1000 for it ? The bersa is an excellent weapon for the money, but the same size or smaller will cost more in a 9mm. I Kahr PM9 is twice the cost of the bersa but cheaper to shoot. Theres a trade off. Cost now vs. cost later.
Spend the $200 on a NAA revolver in .22 mag. Spend the roughly $250 on that bersa. Don't forget practice ammo and defensive ammo. Don't forget your holsters to conceal your pieces on you, and its ok to carry both of them at once, if you prefer.
" Refuse to be a victim, make sure there is a round chambered ! "
Just call me a pessimistic optimist !
U.S. Navy vet 1981-1992
November 2nd, 2008 09:07 AM
IIRC you can get on the NAA web sight and it has an area that gives the ballistics for the different calibers and barrel sizes.
Have myself thought of purchasing a mini-revolver, but after looking at the dimensions and weight, I could not see an advantage to one of those over my P-3at.
From personal experience in a long gun the 22 mag is plain nasty.
An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.
November 2nd, 2008 09:26 AM
Gunblast.com did an article on the Dixie Derringer. You will find it in their archives at gunblast.com. Also here is a link to a page that will automatically figgure FPE for you, Foot Pound Calculations. Taken form the gun blast site:
Ammunition Bullet Weight Velocity
Federal Hollowpoint 50 715.1
CCI Maxi-Mag TNT Hollowpoint 30 995.5
CCI Maxi-Mag +V Hollowpoint 30 977.9
PMC Predator Hollowpoint 40 957.5
If you enter the 40gr. bullet into the FPE chart you come up with about 81FPE.
Y'all be safe now, ya hear!
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
November 2nd, 2008 10:15 AM
this may be a little off topic. regarding the 22 I had the oportunity to display its effectiveness to a friends son yesterday. We were shooting in a trashpile and I had stacked up to board most of it was particle board but I showed him how dangerous a 22 can be and that it is not to be taken lightly. That being said I carry a P32 as my everyday always backed up alot by a glock 26.
November 2nd, 2008 10:32 AM
These are the figures from the NAA Website.
North American Arms
The PUG is their new beefed up mini.
The same grips on the PUG fit the regular 22 Mag.
I have those on mine. They just slip on.
Gives a much better and non slip grip.
NAA also makes a great pocket holster for both.
They holster has a pouch for 5 extra bullets.
November 2nd, 2008 05:54 PM
I have a 22 from NAA around but it's not a very serious gun...not something to risk your life on. If you really want a revolver to carry a S&W in minimal size and weight is probably your best bet...never fired one myself.
I have fired kit guns from both S&W and High Standard(rare model) and found that while they seemed very appealing the small, rounded grip is too unsteady for actual shooting and I couldn't hit anything. Both 22's. Rent something like this at a range before actually buying.
Most people end up with a pocket auto like the Kel-Tec 380 for their 24/7 gun and a wide variety of bigger guns for when they can carry bigger. Rimfire ammo doesn't work very reliably in autos to count on...no matter who made the gun.
You should have a 22 for LOTS of affordable target practice but only revolvers can be counted on to fire when needed. Don't waste money on 22 mag. It costs far more than LR and doesn't give much more power from a short barrel. Most of the powder from any of them goes off after the bullet has already left the barrel.
You can pick up little revolvers at any gun show in 22. If they're beat up they can be very cheap and usually work as well as a new-looking one. Most hold 9 shots. Usually less than $100 if the finish is worn much or it shows some scars. You can shoot bulk ammo from these for nearly nothing.
For not much over $200 you can get a Kel-Tec 380 for the pocket. About 11 ounces loaded and tiny and flat. Get a pocket holster and good to go...even in shorts and t-shirt.
November 2nd, 2008 05:58 PM
Whoops! Forgot to add the Bersas are very good and reliable but not realy for pocket carry. I have two of them in 380. You could look at bersatalk.com and read all about them.
November 2nd, 2008 06:13 PM
Not that I'm disagreeing with the others but: a NAA 22Mag with conversion cylinder for 22LR, resides in my front pocket 18/7. It hits what I aim at up to 7 yards. I am not able to conceal a 45 where I work effectively, but this works for me. When the choice is: a gun in the pocket or one locked in my car.....well, small NAA is better than nothing. It is a well made gun with a company that provides life-time service with excellant customer service. Yes, I also have a J frame S&W 637 which makes a hell of a bulge in the pocket ! And a Kahr PM9 that also got left in the glove box.
November 2nd, 2008 11:07 PM
Zoe: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?
Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."
November 2nd, 2008 11:16 PM
For those times that you can't hide anything else the NAA is better than nothing.
I carry a Kimber Ultral or a Glock-36.
I also have other revolers...
My NAA .22LR is OK for yard work or other times that nothing else works...a MINI .22 on your person is better than a cannon in the safe.
Stay armed...with something...stay safe!
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
November 2nd, 2008 11:28 PM
Maybe I'm just plain incorrect with this next thought, but aren't these .22 magnum NAA guns single action?
The ones I've rented were awkward to shoot and the necessity of pulling the hammer for each shot took a lot away from the gun as a potential SD gun.
I do think a 22 mag in a small double action revolver (is there such a beast?) would make a great "belly" gun.
I liked the idea someone posted above of carrying such (even in single action version) along with a Mustang .380.
November 3rd, 2008 12:04 AM
Above is link to the grips that I use to get a better "handle" on the little beast. Yes, it is single action. All I can say is : 1. Cock the hammer, 2. Jab the barrel in an ear OR up the nose OR in the belly button, and 3. pull the trigger. Ear or nose and assailant done. Belly button shot: during the scream, you have time to fire again OR run away.
Legally I'll never have to answer to charges of shooting someone at 21 feet or more ("sir, how did you know he was a threat at THAT range ?").
The NAA is NOT a primary weapon by any means. It is a bug of last resort or when everything else is too big for adequate concealment. Frankly most of us who carry NAA mini revolvers would love to also carry a 45, a General by Buck, a 642 and a Kahr CW9. But the possibility of hiding all that on my skinny white *ss is just not possible. Was that sarcasm too much?
Those of us over on NAA forum have been bugging Sandy to produce a small sized 22 mag double action revolver for years.........it is the necessary internal workings of a double action that keeps it from being done in the same size as the mini revolvers.
Back to the thread intent: the Black Widow is easy to conceal, accurate out to 10 yards with PRACTICE and inexpensive. 32 caliber will give you better FPS and impact (more thump and bigger hole). Everything is a trade off. Decide what you really must have and what you can negotiate on. Some always go with BIG BULLET while others have to opt for CONCEALMENT. Good luck. Oh, and when in doubt.....buy BOTH !!!
November 3rd, 2008 07:50 AM
Go with the Bersa 380 Thunder Plus (15 rounds)
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