Bullets hurt

This is a discussion on Bullets hurt within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I took a basic defensive rifle course and they said you should plan on 5-8 shots, COM, in about 3 seconds (basically as many as ...

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Thread: Bullets hurt

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array KevinDooley's Avatar
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    I took a basic defensive rifle course and they said you should plan on 5-8 shots, COM, in about 3 seconds (basically as many as you can place accurately in that time) - and that was with rifle caliber rounds - to overload the central nervous system and shut the bad guy down... Given that handgun calibers have much less impressive ballistics... why would you think a .22 would stop a person in 1 shot?

    Personally, if I have to shoot to stop a threat, I'm shooting the biggest caliber I can comfortably carry and shooting until the BG falls off the front sight or I have to reload...
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  3. #17
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    The object isn't to shoot somebody and wait 10 minutes for them to bleed out the object is to deliver a wound that is so traumatic it will stop the threat immediately and a 22 will not do that effectively,also bullet mass +energy stuff means more penetration,I shot at squirrels with 22's and very few ever died immediately and it ain't cause I didn't hit em good.
    You shoot a guy thats 6'4" going 280 pounds with a 22 you better be lubing it with KY cause it will feel better when he takes it and (fill in the blanks)
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    I've been in a motorcycle accident where I suffered a concussion, torn ACL, seven broken ribs, broken arm, and numerous lacerations. I was completely lucid when I went after the a**hole that turned left in front of me. I shouldn't have been able to stand up.
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  5. #19
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    I've seen someone get hit multiple times by 5.56 and still be combat effective.

    Lots and lots of people have been killed by .22, and 5.56, but then that someone has a weapon and is trying to kill you, you may not have time for them to bleed out or to shoot them repeatedly in order to incapactitate them.
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  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunfighter23 View Post
    I don't understand why people assume any type of ammunition won't disable an attacker effectively. Consider the basics. You have a hard material (lead,metal,etc.) that is coming at a human being at least 700 FPS in most cases. That would hurt! I wouldn't want to get shot with a pellet out of a pellet gun much less a projectile out of some sort from a firearm. I don't buy a whole lot of stock in folks that say such and such wouldn't be powerful enough to disable an attacker. The key to the level of disablement is all about bullet placement such as throat, eyes, etc. I mean sure a .357 or .44 would do the job, but you could even carry a .22, .25, or .32 and still be fine.
    The other important thing you need to consider here is over penetration. If you use a FMJ round nose/flat point you are more likely to shoot through and endanger an innocent 3-4 blocks away. The object here is to have the round you fired stay inside the attacker.

    Agreed, shot placement is the key, and accuracy goes out the window under adrenaline , fear, and panic.

    All shots stopping the attack are up to chance. The larger the caliber, the larger the bullet expansion, the better chance of stopping the threat sooner.
    Sticks

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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array frankmako's Avatar
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    it looks like we beat this horse again. it does not matter what cal you carry, just have a gun on you when you need it. not in the car or back home. i have seen large cals not do the job and small cals that did the job. and i have seen it go the other way also. it just goes this way, no reason, to many factors get involved in a shooting to make sence. so for the past 39 years i have carried just about every size gun made, from 22lr up to 45 acp. at no time i did i feel unprotected with what gun i had on me. the bottom line is to have a gun on you when you need it, not at home or in the car.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Gunfighter, have you ever been in a gun fight?

    Trying to effectively hit the throat,eyes,etc when someone is charging you, shooting at you, trying to KILL you is an excellent way to meet your maker.

    Consider the basics.

    If some thug wants to display your scalp on his wall, chances are excellent that he will be higher than a kite, drunker than Cooter Brown, madder than Satan himself, or perhaps he just wants to kill as many people as possible before killing himself. He may be on a 4 day cruise on Meth, and may actually find pain( his and yours)a pleasurable experience. He may be on a such an adrenaline high that he could fall off a 3 story building and walk several miles on two broken legs.

    And you wanto engage this dude with a .22 or other pipsqueak round and you think it'll be just fine?



    To each his own. Good luck with your next encounter.
    I couldn't agree with you more, and I always carry at least a .380 (Ruger LCP). But I've got to tell you that in my 35 or so years of carrying a weapon, I fired defensively only once ... and it was with a diminutive .22 "mouse gun." It brought the attacker---an average sized sort of fellow---to his knees instantly with a shot to the chest, saving the lives of myself and family at a remote roadside rest stop. But I was lucky. When my wardrobe permits, I strap on my 1911 or a .357 revolver.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunfighter23 View Post
    Guys, you're missing the point. I see your point of view, but lots of times you read threads on the internet and they say don't use small little rounds like a .22 because they wouldn't stop an attacker. Read ballistic charts on .22 ammo. The average energy of a .22 is roughly 350 ft. lbs. Do your research. A 9MM has roughly 352 ft. lbs, a .380 has roughly 200 ft. lbs. and a .38 Special has roughly 250 ft. lbs. Before being too quick to debate this issue consider the fact a .22 is a firearm round. You can easily find multitudes of reports of people killed by small caliber bullets. I love my guns just as much as you guys, and for the record I carry 2 .40 cal pistols loaded with Hydra-Shok bullets, a .380 with HP ammo, and a .32 derringer with silver tip HP ammo. Do I carry a .22? No. However, you can't debate the fact it would not kill someone. Heck, there are stories where people fall off mountains and live, get attacked by sharks and live, etc. There are always exceptions. But show me documented proof that noone has ever been killed by a .22 and I will admit I was wrong.
    respectully, i think you are missing the point. yes, absolutely, a .22 will kill you just a dead as a .44 will.

    thing is, it's not about killing; it's about stopping the threat. and, i'm sorry, a .22, .25, or .32 will most likely not produce the amount of shock needed to stop an attacker cranked on meth as well as a .357, 9mm, or .45 COM will.

    in the end, it doesn't matter what you carry, as long as you carry, and can shoot it well.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunfighter23 View Post
    Guys, you're missing the point. I see your point of view, but lots of times you read threads on the internet and they say don't use small little rounds like a .22 because they wouldn't stop an attacker. Read ballistic charts on .22 ammo. The average energy of a .22 is roughly 350 ft. lbs. Do your research. A 9MM has roughly 352 ft. lbs, a .380 has roughly 200 ft. lbs. and a .38 Special has roughly 250 ft. lbs. Before being too quick to debate this issue consider the fact a .22 is a firearm round. You can easily find multitudes of reports of people killed by small caliber bullets. I love my guns just as much as you guys, and for the record I carry 2 .40 cal pistols loaded with Hydra-Shok bullets, a .380 with HP ammo, and a .32 derringer with silver tip HP ammo. Do I carry a .22? No. However, you can't debate the fact it would not kill someone. Heck, there are stories where people fall off mountains and live, get attacked by sharks and live, etc. There are always exceptions. But show me documented proof that noone has ever been killed by a .22 and I will admit I was wrong.
    Velocity alone is not the answer...

    A sharp stick in the eye can kill someone, but that doesn't mean I'm going to shelf my guns for a sharp stick.

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunfighter23 View Post
    But show me documented proof that noone has ever been killed by a .22 and I will admit I was wrong.
    I've never seen anyone killed by a .22. I have seen people killed by another human with a .22; I have seen someone die from a comparatively survivable wound caused by a .22.

    Like frank (and several others here), I've carried from .22 to .45. I do not feel "underarmed" because I know that I have the means and ability to kill someone, if warranted, with or without the gun.

    Guns rarely end fights, most shootings are survived, with fairly minimal after effects. IOW, the guy attacking one has a high statistical probability of having been shot before, and realizes that it is survivable. If what he's after is worth it (subjectively), and if one is not committed to overwhelming presentation of force, the BG will take the hit...and most likely whatever he was after, as well.

    If you aren't equally willing to gouge someone's eyes out, don't say, "a .22's plenty..." If you are willing, GTG.

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunfighter23 View Post
    Guys, you're missing the point. I see your point of view, but lots of times you read threads on the internet and they say don't use small little rounds like a .22 because they wouldn't stop an attacker. Read ballistic charts on .22 ammo. The average energy of a .22 is roughly 350 ft. lbs.
    Note sure where you are getting your data here, but you should share your findings with the ammo manufacturers.

    They seem to think that their .22 LR rounds generate about 150 - 190 ft / lbs.

    varmintfinders.com - RIMFIRE BALLISTICS TABLE

    Incorrect data aside, the problem here is that the issue is not whether or not the round "hurts", or even if it eventually kills. The issue is creating rapid disruption of the CNS or muscular/skeletal systems to rapidly incapacitate.

    Matt
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  13. #27
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    If I'm the cop going after the BG, I'll take the 12 gauge streetsweeper any time !
    " Refuse to be a victim, make sure there is a round chambered ! "

    Just call me a pessimistic optimist !

    U.S. Navy vet 1981-1992

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunfighter23 View Post
    Guys, you're missing the point. I see your point of view, but lots of times you read threads on the internet and they say don't use small little rounds like a .22 because they wouldn't stop an attacker. Read ballistic charts on .22 ammo. The average energy of a .22 is roughly 350 ft. lbs. Do your research..............
    Respectfully, it's you that's missing the point. All of the discussions I've seen on this site aren't about what will or won't kill, it's about what will most effectively stop the threat before you get killed. You can kill a grizzly bear with a 22 if you hit him in the right place but would that caliber be your choice if he were trying to eat you? Not for me. If it was the only thing available, I'd use it but if arming myself to go hunting grizzlies or to go to Wal-Mart, I'm going to choose a caliber that has the best chance of success at stopping the threat before the BG stops me.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    Note sure where you are getting your data here, but you should share your findings with the ammo manufacturers.

    They seem to think that their .22 LR rounds generate about 150 - 190 ft / lbs.

    varmintfinders.com - RIMFIRE BALLISTICS TABLE............Matt
    Have to agree with Matt on this one. If you're going to quote facts, make sure you quote correct facts. Even the CCI stinger is only listed at 191 ft.lbs. and most 22LR is in the 100-150 ft.lb. range and I'll bet you'll find that most of those velocities/energies were derived from rifle length barrels and not pistol/revolver barrels.

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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunfighter23 View Post
    I don't buy a whole lot of stock in folks that say such and such wouldn't be powerful enough to disable an attacker. The key to the level of disablement is all about bullet placement such as throat, eyes, etc. I mean sure a .357 or .44 would do the job, but you could even carry a .22, .25, or .32 and still be fine.
    1) Real world experience indicates that caliber choice makes a large difference. For an example, research the history of the .38 Long Colt used by the U.S. Army with respect to fighting Moro guerrillas.

    2) Shot placement is great, especially if you're in a Hollywood movie where carving out a perfect smiley on a target at 25 yards is simple. Real life rears its head again indicating that trained individuals involved in gunfights tend to have extremely low hit rates. That's HITTING the target, much less calling a shot to the throat or eyes. A gunfight bears little similarity to a calm day on the shooting range, in terms of physiologic responses.

  16. #30
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    Guys even rifle rounds are not magic. A recent large city SWAT team shot a BG with 3 rounds of 308 Win through the chest from 50 yards. (three shooters shooting at the same time, no head shots due to low tree limbs). He lived for about 2 hours. They had to stop the ambulance that pick him up in route to the hospital and put a officer on board because he was fighting the crew .

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