Bullets hurt - Page 3

Bullets hurt

This is a discussion on Bullets hurt within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; ^Quite so. Which is why anyone worth shooting is worth shooting until motion ceases. 1) Carry the larget round one can effectively shoot. 2) Carry ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    ^Quite so. Which is why anyone worth shooting is worth shooting until motion ceases.
    1) Carry the larget round one can effectively shoot.
    2) Carry the most ammo one is able to for said tool.
    3) If needed, apply liberally and with vigor.


  2. #32
    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    Regardless, I think we all agree that armed with something is better than nothing.

    And even though any caliber has the potential to kill, I think most of us here also agree that surviving an encounter is more dependant on the potential to stop the fastest.

    For me, given the choice, I carry as large a caliber as I can at all times. I believe that one of the most key ingredients to surviving an encounter is being the first one to put the most and largest holes in the BG, before he can do the same to me.
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array KevinDooley's Avatar
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    I really, really hate to be that guy... but this just drives me nuts...

    Irregardless is not a word. It is a blend of irrespective and regardless...

    Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir- prefix and -less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so.
    Just like dethaw is a blend of defrost and thaw... Oh but I digress... back to our previously scheduled caliber war.

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  4. #34
    Member Array artificialgrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunfighter23 View Post
    The average energy of a .22 is roughly 350 ft. lbs. Do your research. A 9MM has roughly 352 ft. lbs, a .380 has roughly 200 ft. lbs. and a .38 Special has roughly 250 ft. lbs.
    So you're saying that a .22 LR round has 100 ft pounds more energy than a .38 SPL round - and only 2 less ft pounds than a 9mm? Someone's been smoking something
    Glock 19, 26 & 36 | Kahr K9 & PM9 | S&W M&P9c, 642 & 640 | Ruger LCP

  5. #35
    Ex Member Array gunfighter23's Avatar
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    I'm glad to see some posters are mature and can debate a subject in a mature manner. I agree with those of you that said carrying some kind of gun is more effective than none at all. Velocity charts are like cars in some ways. What I mean by that is various ammo manufacturers make their ammo in various ways. Yes, depending on the manufaturer of the ammo .22 ammo can be up to 350 ft. lbs. To assume that a poster is smoking, uninformed, etc. because you don't agree with him or her is not mature. However, I digress. The key aspect of this post is the fact we have a constitutional right to express our opinion. Rather we agree or disagree is not as important as the fact we have a right to own and carry a gun. Take advantage of the right to carry. We could all be living under a government that did not allow free speech OR the right to carry a firearm. Be thankful we even have any guns to talk about. You know what I mean?

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array hudsonvalley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frankmako View Post
    it looks like we beat this horse again. it does not matter what cal you carry, just have a gun on you when you need it. not in the car or back home. i have seen large cals not do the job and small cals that did the job. and i have seen it go the other way also. it just goes this way, no reason, to many factors get involved in a shooting to make sence. so for the past 39 years i have carried just about every size gun made, from 22lr up to 45 acp. at no time i did i feel unprotected with what gun i had on me. the bottom line is to have a gun on you when you need it, not at home or in the car.
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  7. #37
    VIP Member Array AllAmerican's Avatar
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    Ooooh I only ready the first page. Let me post to see if this has turned into another my caliber is better thread....
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  8. #38
    Distinguished Member Array SonofASniper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinDooley View Post
    I really, really hate to be that guy... but this just drives me nuts...

    Irregardless is not a word. It is a blend of irrespective and regardless...



    Just like dethaw is a blend of defrost and thaw... Oh but I digress... back to our previously scheduled caliber war.

    Corrected sir, just for you.


    But if you really hate being that guy, then why be that guy?
    I will support gun control when you can guarantee all guns are removed from this planet. That includes military and law enforcement. When you can accomplish that, then I will be the last person to lay down my gun. Then I will carry the weapon that replaces the gun.

  9. #39
    Member Array artificialgrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunfighter23 View Post
    I'm glad to see some posters are mature and can debate a subject in a mature manner. I agree with those of you that said carrying some kind of gun is more effective than none at all. Velocity charts are like cars in some ways. What I mean by that is various ammo manufacturers make their ammo in various ways. Yes, depending on the manufaturer of the ammo .22 ammo can be up to 350 ft. lbs. To assume that a poster is smoking, uninformed, etc. because you don't agree with him or her is not mature. However, I digress. The key aspect of this post is the fact we have a constitutional right to express our opinion. Rather we agree or disagree is not as important as the fact we have a right to own and carry a gun. Take advantage of the right to carry. We could all be living under a government that did not allow free speech OR the right to carry a firearm. Be thankful we even have any guns to talk about. You know what I mean?
    Wasn't a debate, but an observation. Was responding to claims that are sketchy at best. For a 40 grain .22 LR to hit 355 ft lbs, it would have to be traveling at approx 2000 fps. That wouldn't be a conventional off-the-shelf load at all. Comparing ballistics like that to conventional rounds of other calibers makes no sense.

    Honestly, this whole thing is starting to smell of troll.
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  10. #40
    Member Array CharlieP's Avatar
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    What stops the BG

    There was an FBI report years ago that said that a determined aggressor can keep coming at you for 10 to 15 seconds even with a fatal shot through the heart. But in the same report they said that most people will fall to the ground when shot, if they realize they have been hit, regardless of whether the round is a .22 or a .45. So it may be that the "knockdown power" associated with HP bullets and larger calibers may have nothing to do with wound channel or tissue damage, its just that the BG knows he has been hit. Whap! But if you run into a determined aggressor at close range who does not care if he has been shot, you might be better off with a baseball bat than a pistol.

    But its hard to find a concealed carry holster for a baseball bat.

  11. #41
    Distinguished Member Array T Bone's Avatar
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    Hey, a .22 is just as good as a .50BMG, right? I mean dead is dead.... (yup, sarcasm).

    Quote Originally Posted by gunfighter23
    Read ballistic charts on .22 ammo. The average energy of a .22 is roughly 350 ft. lbs. Do your research.
    Quote Originally Posted by gunfighter23
    What I mean by that is various ammo manufacturers make their ammo in various ways. Yes, depending on the manufaturer of the ammo .22 ammo can be up to 350 ft. lbs.
    Well, these two statements don't seem to match. Do us a favor, would you post a source of A manufacturer that lists a .22 at "roughly 350 ft. lbs. (seems you've already done the research...?).

    I wrote a lengthly reply to the OP last night, but when I went to post it, the Forum seemed to be down. Just as well, most of the points I was making have now been made by others (shooting to stop, massive trauma to CNS, carrying the largest caliber one can carry practically with the most ammo one can manage realistically, etc. etc.).

    Bottom line, I wonder if the newbie really just wanted to get a rise out of the Forum members? Or if he just wanted to make a point (the ONLY thing I agree with in his whole subject matter is that the the gun you have with you is better than the larger, "better" one you left at home/in the car, etc. etc. But we all know that).

    If you really believe you're as well armed with a .22 as you are with larger calibers (and think you can get the kinds of shot placement you discuss under stress, with maybe lead flying in your direction too), then you are certainly welcome to carry that way! (But of course you've already told us you carry multiple guns in larger calibers I think I recall from a few pages back- so why?).

    But don't try and sell it to the masses, especially when a lot of folks are coming here for real world advice/answers to what for them is a new situation, carrying a firearm for defense. These folks need accurate reliable, fact based information on which to build a knowledge base and from which they can begin to form their own opinions. They don't need to be sold fantassy where a .22 in the pocket will prepare them for the average threat from the average BG and allow them to go home at night (it might, or the .44 mag might not even be enough). They need to know the odds don't favor the diminutive calibers for self defense in a shooting situation.

    Bullets do hurt I'm sure (never want to find out first hand!). But they won't all stop an aggressor every time, in fact often they won't. Gotta do what we can to increase the odds in our favor. .22LR isn't it.
    Regards, T Bone.


    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". Benjamin Franklin

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunfighter23 View Post
    I'm glad to see some posters are mature and can debate a subject in a mature manner. I agree with those of you that said carrying some kind of gun is more effective than none at all. Velocity charts are like cars in some ways. What I mean by that is various ammo manufacturers make their ammo in various ways. Yes, depending on the manufaturer of the ammo .22 ammo can be up to 350 ft. lbs. To assume that a poster is smoking, uninformed, etc. because you don't agree with him or her is not mature. However, I digress. The key aspect of this post is the fact we have a constitutional right to express our opinion. Rather we agree or disagree is not as important as the fact we have a right to own and carry a gun. Take advantage of the right to carry. We could all be living under a government that did not allow free speech OR the right to carry a firearm. Be thankful we even have any guns to talk about. You know what I mean?
    Umm, in order for a normal .22 caliber bullet to have 350 ft lbs of energy it would need to be exiting the barrel at over 2000 fps. That round does not exist. Even rifle rounds only exit at about 1100 fps.

    Where ever you got any info that a .22 can produce 350 lbs of engery, you need to forget about that source for information.

    The formula for energy of a bullet is as follows

    Velocity x Velocity x bullet weight / 450400

    So to put it in real numbers Speer GDHP exit my 5'' 9mm at 1210 fps, chronographed.

    1210 x 1210 x 124 / 450400 = 403 ft lbs.

    No .22 pistol is going to be anywhere close to 350 ft lbs.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  13. #43
    Ex Member Array gunfighter23's Avatar
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    You all do know how to read...right? I'll save all of you "Ballistic experts" some trouble. Call "Cheaper Than Dirt" and ask them to send you a Fall 2008 catalog. It lists all the ballistic charts for every type of ammunition they sale. As I have said time and time again....[U]DO YOUR RESEARCH[U] It is scary that all of you have guns and don't know the capabilities of your guns. If the ballistic charts are too advanced for your intellect try Hooked On Phonics. isEither way you will learn more than you knew.
    Last edited by HotGuns; January 23rd, 2009 at 06:00 PM. Reason: unneeded and inflamatory comments

  14. #44
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    My brother-in-law was shot twice in the chest with HP .40cal (he was the victim, by the way).. He said it burnt, but didn't immediately put him down. He eventually went down due to blood loss, but survived. Years of intestinal problems and many, many months of surgeries, but he survived, as do many shooting victims. One hit center mass near his heart, the other entered a little higher and traveled downward, exiting his leg.

    I carry a .45 at all times. I like shooting 9mm's.. But a big, heavy, slow moving .45 has darn good odds of breaking through whatever is in it's way like the chest plate and other bones, etc. For me, there's no other round. I'm glad the OP feels that the .22 is sufficient.

    Actually, I believe that the .22 is responsible for many deaths. I don't want to say more than any other rounds, but it's up there. But, it has no where near the ability of other rounds to immediately incapacitate.

    Anyone that has their CHL should know it's not about killing, but about stopping. If you don't know that, maybe there wasn't enough research done before obtaining the license. I also don't know to many that will draw in self defense and land a well placed shot to the eye or through - Two places that the .22 will most likely penetrate.

    And, just because I haven't noticed it mentioned yet, the bullets energy looks good on paper, but doesn't have as much to do with stopping a threat as many think.

    My Ar-15 (chambered in .223 / 5.56) hits with about 1300 fpe, but that doesn't mean it's more effective in bear country than a .44 magnum that's has little more than half the velocity and energy of a 5.56...

    Also, just for reference, this may be where the confusion comes in about the .22's energy..

    – Sorry, I couldn't get these to space out evenly...

    Energy(Ft-#)=(Velocity(in FPS) Squared)*(weight (in pounds))/(2*32.2)
    Weight in Pounds = .002285*(Grains)/16

    Bullet Weight - Velocity - Energy at Muzzle

    22 LR

    Fed UltraMatch - 40 1085 104.4
    Fed HP - 38 1280 138.1
    Fed RN - 40 1255 139.7
    CCI Stinger - 32 1640 190.9
    CCI Stinger 14" barrel - 32 1541 168.5
    CCI 22TCS Minimag - 36 1425 162.1
    CCI Minimag - 36 1280 130.8
    CCI SGB - 38 1280 138.1
    Rem Yellow Jackets - 33 1500 164.7
    Rem Viper - 36 1410 158.7

    22 WMR

    Fed JHP - 30 2200 322.0
    Fed FMJ - 40 1910 323.6
    Fed JHP - 50 1650 301.9
    Win FMJ - 40 1910 323.6
    Win JHP - 40 1910 323.6

    Copied from - rec.guns FAQ: VII.E.8. Projectile Weight, Muzzle Velocity and Energy The first thing that came up in Google. I have some great ammo literature in PDF form, but didn't know how to post it..

    Jonathan

  15. #45
    Member Array XDFender's Avatar
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    gunfighter23, you apparently have not woken up to the fact yet that there are a lot of highly knowledgeable people on this forum who know a lot about ballistics and ammunition. Many of them are handloaders. They recognize a crock when they smell it.

    You are the one who made the assertion regarding the energy behind a .22 cal. round--back it up. Post up the data. Otherwise quit embarassing yourself. Unless you are talking about certain .22 cal. rifle rounds (heck, even the AR15/M16 is technically a ".22"), you are way off-base.

    Sure, getting shot by any round is a beotch. But answer this simple question--if you had to be shot, but could choose what handgun round you would be shot with, do you mean to tell us that it would not matter to you?

    Shot placement is the most important factor--no doubt. But after that, the penetration and energy impact of the bullet comes next in importance, and there simply is no way that a .22LR round even begins to compete with rounds like 9mm, .40 cal., .45 APC, etc.

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