String up that Dead Horse Again

This is a discussion on String up that Dead Horse Again within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I know we've said it before but a recent argument just drove it back to the front of my mind again. It's easy to get ...

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Thread: String up that Dead Horse Again

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    String up that Dead Horse Again

    I know we've said it before but a recent argument just drove it back to the front of my mind again.

    It's easy to get caught up in this gun is better than that gun and this caliber is better than that caliber when the reality is that the gun is maybe, and I say maybe, 5% of the solution when it comes to actual self protection.

    It's true you can't avoid everything, but your awareness and mindset alone count for an awful lot. Knowing how to shoot as opposed to what you should be shooting according to some gun rag is probably the rest of it.

    It's true that what I call "human" factors work into the situation. Seemingly arbitrary differences often dictate what is a suitable carry gun and what is not. Your experiences, life style, physical condition, and perceptions color it too.

    I've spent an embarassing amount on holsters ever since finding this forum, and you know what, the good ones make all the difference. You'd be surprised what you can carry with a decent holster. Or actually you might not be if you knew that already.

    Anything you pick for a carry gun is going to suck. That's my outlook on it. The reason I say that is that everything is a compromise. If one handgun really did do everything that's all they'd make.

    There are guns I own that I otherwise wouldn't because they meet my carry needs. There are guns I own that I love dearly that I never carry. Any gun that exists, you are going to have an opinion on. And for you personally, you're probably right.

    Carry gun choices are very personal so it's only natural that people boast about them and defend them when they're attacked. Silly as it sounds, even your most loathed gun is a little piece of your personality. There's a whole world of guns out there and you picked that one. It says something about you, so hearing it criticized will illicit a knee jerk reaction and hearing it praised will bring more gloating.

    But to like anything, that means you dislike something else to some degree, or at least you don't like it enough to carry it and you probably have a good reason. Not necessarily a logical reason or an objective one, but one that is important to you. Therefore you will hear both praise and scorn for everything in existence at different times.

    It's like anything else in life. You've got to make your own decisions and sometimes learn to live with your own prejudices. Whether or not such and such is a viable carry gun is subjective from person to person in the end.

    And why shouldn't it be? After all the gun itself is a very small part of your self protection scheme.

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    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    the reality is that the gun is maybe, and I say maybe, 5% of the solution when it comes to actual self protection.
    i feel you are grossly underestimating (or at least under-stating) the importance of caliber. shot placement is the most important factor, but caliber isnt far behind it. a .32 in the chest might be better than a .357 in the wall, but a .32 in the chest falls way short of a .357 in the chest. add drugs (most violent attackers are prone to drug usage) and caliber choice becomes absolutely critical.


    Anything you pick for a carry gun is going to suck. That's my outlook on it. The reason I say that is that everything is a compromise. If one handgun really did do everything that's all they'd make.
    no one handgun will do it all for everyone, but its not to difficult to find a handgun to "do it all" for you. i hate it that a glock does it all for me better than a 1911 does it all for me (ive always preferred to carry the 1911) but it does so i carry it. the only obstruction i had in finding one that does it all for me was getting over my prejudice against glock and my loyalty for the mighty 1911.


    There are guns I own that I otherwise wouldn't because they meet my carry needs. There are guns I own that I love dearly that I never carry.
    now that i definately agree with! my springfield tactical 1911 is the most beloved gun in my entire cache, but its not my daily carry weapon because the glock meets my defensive carry needs so well.

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    Administrative Ban Array Bruces45's Avatar
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    Euc, good read. I agree with most of what ya said.

    Now how do you break up the quotes and put your reply inbetween like Natural did?

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    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Use the [quote] tag


    [quote="Post Author"]Here is a point I'd like to refute, seek clarification on, or add to.[*quote]

    Here is my comment.

    Now replace the * with a / and you get:

    Quote Originally Posted by Post Author
    Here is a point I'd like to refute, seek clarification on, or add to.
    Here is my comment.

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    Member Array oregonshooter's Avatar
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    no one handgun will do it all for everyone, but its not to difficult to find a handgun to "do it all" for you. i hate it that a glock does it all for me better than a 1911 does it all for me (ive always preferred to carry the 1911) but it does so i carry it. the only obstruction i had in finding one that does it all for me was getting over my prejudice against glock and my loyalty for the mighty 1911.

    Ditto. :(

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    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalSelection
    i feel you are grossly underestimating (or at least under-stating) the importance of caliber. shot placement is the most important factor, but caliber isnt far behind it. a .32 in the chest might be better than a .357 in the wall, but a .32 in the chest falls way short of a .357 in the chest. add drugs (most violent attackers are prone to drug usage) and caliber choice becomes absolutely critical.
    That's a fair point, I just think we get too hung up on it sometimes and I am as guilty as anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalSelection
    no one handgun will do it all for everyone, but its not to difficult to find a handgun to "do it all" for you. i hate it that a glock does it all for me better than a 1911 does it all for me (ive always preferred to carry the 1911) but it does so i carry it. the only obstruction i had in finding one that does it all for me was getting over my prejudice against glock and my loyalty for the mighty 1911.
    Yes, that's my point exactly and better stated.

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    The bottom line is that if you are not comfortable with you pistol it's not going to "be" there when you need it.

    And each person is an individual, just like each person is different. If that wasn't true there would be only one model of gun, in one caliber, made by one company.

    (And BTW Bruce45, it would be a SIG!! )
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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    Quote Originally Posted by rstickle
    (And BTW Bruce45, it would be a SIG!! )
    Hahaha - the war continues LOL!

    I am not sure Euc I would ascribe a paltry 5% to the gun - I'd ramp things up a bit and say maybe things are 50/50 - making the point that the gun ain't everything by a long ways.

    I feel incredibly lucky that with my SIG - or any of my SIG platforms - I do in fact have exactly what I want - to shoot, carry and have useable skills with. I can tho understand for some the ''Glock works best but I love my 1911'' !!!!

    We are as ever into the personal preference/proficiency deal - and so we probably all have different likes and needs.

    From a pure ''recreational'' POV maybe my BFR comes out top - sure makes for one heck of a grin - but of course it ain't no carry piece (hmmm - never know ). Seriously tho - what works for carry is certainly never going to equate always with one's absolute fave.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    VIP Member Array artz's Avatar
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    No doubt I got caught up in the caliber war. At times it was shear torment. It was more torment on the lack of model choices I was faced with, because most of what I own was accumulated in Kalifornia.
    This caliber or that caliber. More money goes by the wayside into someone elses backpocket, and not mine. I still have to watch myself on the 10mm vs. .45 acp. I get kinda squiurrely, but I won't ever give up on my 10mm. For a while it was .380 vs .22 mag. The .380 won out. But I still have a NAA .22 mag.

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    I dunno.................I just one (or more) of each caliber..............so I can make my mind up.........This was..........i can never say I didn't have the Caliber covered LOL..........
    Why Waltz when you can Rock-N-Roll

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    Better a 1st rate shooter with a 3rd rate gun, than the opposite.

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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    i place primary importance on shot placement w/ any firearm i decide to carry. shot placement is the key.
    i thought pic would go with eucs title
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    Kat
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    I’m with Euc.

    If our guns are there as the last resort, after all of our other skills (staying away from danger zones entirely, monitoring our surroundings, not appearing like “prey”, etc.) have failed, then the caliber factor is drastically diminished. Especially if you consider that it’s quite likely that numerous, life-threatening situations come to an end simply by the drawing of a gun, without a shot being fired.

    The same type of argument is present within the hunting community. In proportion to their importance, gun caliber, bullet selection, bow speed, etc. are worried about way more than they should be. Put me on a stand where I’ll see deer, with a weapon that I know I can hit the kill zone with and it won’t matter, for the most part, if it’s a 25/20, a 300Mag., a 320 fps Mathews or a homemade long bow. Having a little luck with me in the stand helps too.

    Yes, there are exceptions, but we’re discussing the RELATIVE importance of caliber & type of gun to all of the other factors that will keep us from becoming a victim.

    Of course, if you take away the “right gun” discussions, life would get awfully boring.
    Luke 22:36 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."

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    Yes, there are exceptions, but we’re discussing the RELATIVE importance of caliber & type of gun to all of the other factors that will keep us from becoming a victim.
    The thing is...

    If you do have to fire, everything else has failed.

    Our awareness, our ability to "see ahead", our communication skills, our ability to retreat, our state of preparedness...none of it means squat the moment you decide to pull the trigger.

    That is when "caliber" becomes most important.

    I have a hard time understanding why obviously knowledgable people will still choose a minor caliber to defend themselves with. Many well meaning folks choose a caliber that is easy to carry instead of one that will best do the job when needed. In my simple way of thinking that is completley bass ackwards.

    It is no mistake that may police depts have migrated back to the .45 ACP. The cops see and deal with the worst that society has to offer on a daliy basis. Alcohol,drugs,and exteme mental duress, adrenaline flow, all of these things have an effect upon a person, and it will make it harder for you to kill him if need be. A handgun is at best a compromise, and going with a small caliber is a definate handicap.

    If the average Joe does get into a shooting situation, the chances of shooting someone that is impaired is over 80 percent.
    Some people are so drugged up that you could shoot their legs off and they wouldnt feel any pain. Some are so high that they wont remember an incident when they wake up. Some people are so void of emotion due to drugs that they would kill you for a dime and not lose a wink of sleep over it.

    They will always be a lot of argument over various calibers and the effectiveness of each, but it will be by people that have never had to deal with someone that is hell bent on destruction,they have never had to deal with drug and alcohol induced stupors and they have never seen the bloodshed that accompanys various crime scenes..luckily for them. They deny the real world results and they beleive for some reason that their puny liitle caliber that is easy to carry will stop such a crazed attacker.

    These folks will argue that they will shoot the attacker in the eyeball, or make mulitple headshots or CNS hits, without realizing that a gunfight NEVER is what you expect it to be and things are never as easy as one would suppose them to be. It is but "wishful thinking" on their part because if someone is trying to kill you, they wont be standing still and when they are shooting at you at bets are off. Guys that routinely ace a Combat Silhouette Course and qualify Expert with every gun that they pick up have been known to unload weapons at BadGuys standing just a few feet away with no hits.

    The problem with many folks is that they carry a gun with the intention of NOT having to shoot it rather than carrying it with the purpose of putting down the worst human animal that they can imagine.

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    Kat
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    HotGuns,

    I don't disagree with anything you've said. Once you've gotten to the point of pulling the trigger, the only thing that matters is your shot (#1a placement, #1b size of hole).
    Luke 22:36 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."

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