10MM auto - Page 3

10MM auto

This is a discussion on 10MM auto within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I sometimes carry a 10 mm. Yes, there are several JHP loadings for this round. Short answer, is that the 10 mm is not "too ...

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Thread: 10MM auto

  1. #31
    Member Array gglockster's Avatar
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    I sometimes carry a 10 mm. Yes, there are several JHP loadings for this round. Short answer, is that the 10 mm is not "too powerful for the FBI". Accuracy is subjective, but I feel that 10 mm shoots flatter and with more "umph" than a 45 ACP. Multiple manufacturers, to include: S&W, Kimber, Glock, EAA, and CZ (Dan Wesson).

    With the overall increase in ammunition prices 10 mm is starting to look more affordable. To me it seems that 10 mm ammunition has not increased in price nearly as much as some of the more popular calibers.

    As far as legal issues, the Harvey Fish case in Arizona can be searched on the Internet. History of why the FBI selected the 10 mm traces back to the infamous "Miami shooting". I like the 10 mm. There is a thread on this forum on 10 mm ammunition that covers much of this topic. You may also want to look at:

    The Gun Zone's Bren Ten Museum.
    The Gun Zone -- The FBI Hardware Wars
    10mm Tech Notes


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    The 10mm was ultimately knocked out of the FBI because of the size of the guns they had to put it in...not freindly to all size or gendered agents. There are reports of several agents being "threatened because they would not turn in their 1006 or 1076 whichever model it was they were carrying. That ultimately led to the Glock .40. The 10 balistically is an awesome round...but be prepared to defend your use of it in court if you shoot somebody in SD...just the world we live in.
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  3. #33
    Member Array Erich1B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwhite75 View Post
    The 10mm was ultimately knocked out of the FBI because of the size of the guns they had to put it in.
    Interesting, can you provide more specific information supporting this contention.
    Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    Well I had read some info on it in one of the several gun mags I read...dont remember which one but I believe, it was a Massad Ayoob article. Also, I had heard some misinformation about this subject and posted it on here, and another member corrected me and provided me with some of it. It may not be true...but it is what I had been told or read. Maybe a search on here will dig up my older posts and the gentleman kind enough to correct my misinformation.
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  5. #35
    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    The .40 is sort of a 10 mm "short" in a way.
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  6. #36
    Member Array mutumbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gglockster View Post
    I sometimes carry a 10 mm. Yes, there are several JHP loadings for this round. Short answer, is that the 10 mm is not "too powerful for the FBI". Accuracy is subjective, but I feel that 10 mm shoots flatter and with more "umph" than a 45 ACP. Multiple manufacturers, to include: S&W, Kimber, Glock, EAA, and CZ (Dan Wesson).

    With the overall increase in ammunition prices 10 mm is starting to look more affordable. To me it seems that 10 mm ammunition has not increased in price nearly as much as some of the more popular calibers.

    As far as legal issues, the Harvey Fish case in Arizona can be searched on the Internet. History of why the FBI selected the 10 mm traces back to the infamous "Miami shooting". I like the 10 mm. There is a thread on this forum on 10 mm ammunition that covers much of this topic. You may also want to look at:

    The Gun Zone's Bren Ten Museum.
    The Gun Zone -- The FBI Hardware Wars
    10mm Tech Notes
    since i found the miami shooting so interesting i figured id post most of it here:

    On April 11 a team of FBI agents led by special agent Gordan McNeil manned ten cars on the lookout for the suspect vehicle. At about 9 a.m. agents Grogan and Dove spotted the vehicle, and began to follow it. Two other cars joined them, and eventually an attempt was made to conduct a felony traffic stop of the suspects' car, which was forced off the road in a collision with FBI cars driven by agents Grogan, John Hanlon and Dick Manauzzi, sending it slamming head on into a tree.

    Immediately after being forced off the road, Platt began firing his Ruger Mini-14 .223 rifle from the car, while Matix fired a single blast from his Smith & Wesson M3000 12 gauge shotgun. Meanwhile, the initial collision that forced the suspects off the road caused some unforeseen problems for the agents. Just prior to ramming the Monte Carlo, agent Dick Manauzzi had pulled out his service revolver and placed it in his lap in anticipation of a shootout, but the force of the collision flung open his door and sent his weapon flying out of his lap. Before he could locate it he was struck by multiple rifle rounds and was effectively incapacitated. Agent John Hanlon also lost his primary .357 service revolver during the initial collision, though he was still able to fight with his Smith & Wesson Model 36 backup gun. Furthermore, the collision also knocked off agent Ben Grogan's eye glasses, making it difficult for him to see his targets.

    Trapped in the Monte Carlo by cars on both sides blocking the front doors, Platt opened up on Agents Gordan McNeil and Edmundo Mireles by firing his Mini-14 across Matix's body through the driver side window, with the muzzle almost in Matix's face. Mireles was hit in the left arm, completely disabling it, while McNeil was shot through his right hand. However, McNeil still managed to fire five shots with his handgun into the Monte Carlo's windshield, hitting Matix with two rounds. Matix was apparently knocked unconscious by the hits and fired no more rounds for the rest of the fight.

    Platt climbed out a car window and advanced on the agents, while continuing to fire. As he did so, he was struck by two 9 mm rounds, one from agent Jerry Dove, and the other from Agent Ron Risner, who along with agent Gilbert Orrantia, was shooting from a position of cover about five car lengths away. Risner's round hit Platt underneath the armpit, while Dove's cut into his lung. The coroner who later examined Platt determined the lung shot was a fatal wound that would have eventually killed him even if he had received immediate medical treatment, but it did not stop him and he continued fighting with his rifle and a revolver, and caused agents more injuries, including a shot to the neck which left agent McNeill paralyzed for the rest of the fight. Another shot struck agent Dove's pistol, rendering it inoperative.

    Military-trained, Platt aggressively advanced on Grogan and Dove's car, which they (so far uninjured) were using for cover. Reaching their position, he continued firing the rifle. Platt killed Grogan with a shot to the chest, shot agent Hanlon in the hand and pelvis, and then killed agent Dove with two shots to the head. Platt himself had already been hit six times at this point.

    Platt entered Grogan and Dove's car, apparently attempting escape. He was joined by Matix, who had regained consciousness and had crawled unseen to Platt's position.

    But they were stopped by Mireles, who, despite being seriously injured during the gunfight (his left arm was totally disabled after being struck by bullets from Platt's rifle), overcame his injuries by using his uninjured arm to cycle his pump shotgun one-handed, balance the gun on the bumper of his car, and fire repeated rounds at the vehicle's driver and passenger compartment, striking the suspects several times and preventing them from leaving the scene. In response, the badly wounded Platt stumbled out of the driver's seat with a revolver in his left hand (his right was disabled by now), limped over to Mireles, fired three rounds at close range, and then limped back into the driver's seat of the FBI Buick.

    However, all three of his shots had missed. With his shotgun rounds expended, Mireles managed to rise to his feet, drew his service revolver, and advanced toward the vehicle where he killed both Matix and Platt by emptying his revolver into them at very close range. The shootout involved a total of 10 people: 2 suspects and 8 FBI Agents. Of the 10 participants, only one emerged from the battle unharmed.[1]

    Toxicology tests showed that the astounding abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gun shot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were completely drug- and alcohol-free at the time of their deaths

    Agents
    Richard Manauzzi (Lost control of weapon in the initial vehicle collision, no shots fired), Injured (unspecified injuries).
    Gordon McNeill (S&W M19-3 .357 Magnum revolver, 6 rounds .38 Special +P fired), Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck
    Edmundo Mireles (Remington M870 12 gauge shotgun, 5 rounds 00 buckshot fired, .357 Magnum revolver (S&W, model unknown), 6 rounds .38 Special +P fired), Seriously injured by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
    Gilbert Orrantia (S&W (model unknown) .357 Magnum revolver, 12 rounds .38 Special +P fired) Injured by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near hit.
    John Hanlon (S&W M459 9mm pistol, 9 rounds fired), Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
    Benjamin Grogan (S&W M459 9mm pistol, 9 rounds fired), Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
    Jerry Dove (S&W M459 9mm pistol, 20 rounds fired), Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.
    Ron Risner (S&W M459 9mm pistol, 13-14 rounds fired, S&W (model unknown) .38 Special revolver, 1 round .38 Special +P fired), Uninjured.

    [edit] Suspects
    William Matix(S&W M3000 12 gauge shotgun, 1 round #6 shot fired), Killed after being shot a total of 6 times.
    Michael Platt (Ruger Mini-14 .223 Remington carbine, at least 42 rounds fired, S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver, 3 rounds fired, Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver, 3 rounds fired), Killed after being shot a total of 12 times.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array joleary223's Avatar
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    Here is some info on the decision by the FBI to adopt the 10mm.
    DeporTiro Online Magazine- The Guns Magazine on the Web - www.deportiro.com
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  8. #38
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    To be controllable, a 10mm is going to be HEAVY. An EDC shouldn't be a boat anchor.
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