Starting to leave out the BUG

This is a discussion on Starting to leave out the BUG within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I just wish to point out that malfunction rate in a gunfight tends to be higher than on the clean dry range , in a ...

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Thread: Starting to leave out the BUG

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I just wish to point out that malfunction rate in a gunfight tends to be higher than on the clean dry range , in a dust up you are moving , grappeling , rolling arround in the mud , ect.. this and stress ( physological reactions to fear bordering on terror ) all can deteriate a pistols relliability . as to the percentage i dont know if a study has eaver been done on malf rates in gunfights but over 5% certinly wouldnt supprise me personaly

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Unhappy BG disarms GG?

    Quote Originally Posted by tex45acp
    The chances of today's upper end firearms, shooting good commercially manufactured ammunition, having a malfunction, is about 5% in my opinion. But that 5% and a fellow named Murphy is why I always back up my primary with a BUG. If I ever have my primary taken away from me by a BG and I am able to break away, with a BUG, I at least have a chance of defending myself. Since they both are of the dame caliber I can use my primary's ammo in my BUG if need be.
    If a BG get's your gun, it is likely he will be removing it from your dead body. There won't be an opportunity to recover from that scenario, which is why I don't carry a BUG on me for daily wear. I carry a knife. But I have a BUG in my vehicle for long trips and it serves as a primary for my wife in the vehicle. BG get's that close, you'd better segue into an ultra violent force on force attack with the object of popping eyeballs and ripping out throats....Using either an edged weapon or bare hands......it's THAT immediate.

    FIVE PERCENT FAILURE RATE ON FACTORY AMMO? Sorry, don't mean to yell, I'm just a bit shocked. I've got to disagree even with a pronounced murphy factor. I would figure as a S.W.A.G. that the actual failure rate for factory ammo is going to be about 1/10th of 1% Much MUCH more likely is a failure associated with the magazine or extractor.....If 5% was the number, I think we'd be seeing dead cops all over the place and tons of new lawsuits that would probably be SUPPORTED by the NRA!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Training not equipment failures....

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs
    I just wish to point out that malfunction rate in a gunfight tends to be higher than on the clean dry range , in a dust up you are moving , grappeling , rolling arround in the mud , ect.. this and stress ( physological reactions to fear bordering on terror ) all can deteriate a pistols relliability . as to the percentage i dont know if a study has eaver been done on malf rates in gunfights but over 5% certinly wouldnt supprise me personaly
    I still disagree given the combat MURPHY factors. That being the case, consider real combat from WWII to the current situation. Many of the folks we are discussing in this situation will be 1911 users or even Beretta users. Not to mention Browning, H&K, and Sigs. All major military weapons. How many failures of this nature have sprung from the battlefield? Damn few, right? It's almost NEVER the gun in these cases, it is operator failure. That's the reason one trains.

    All those reactions to fear you mention are going to spring from a sheep who is less likely to be armed in the first place. IF you train even a little bit, in times of stress you will revert to your training (that's why it is so critical to train RIGHT) and that will carry you thru the day. Most folks fall apart....later.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    ExSoldier762 you somewhat make my point for me , square ranges are now good for traing for round dustups , and are all most have access to. without realistic training no one can approch a " social disagreement" with confidince and every facit suffers

  6. #35
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    practice transitioning

    For all that carry BUGs, do you train at the range simulating a scenario where the main gun fails, fails after a tap-rack-try-to-bang, then drop the main gun (or throw it at the BG), draw the BUG and fire? OR drop your main gun (simulating a gun grab from a BG), draw your BUG and fire.

    I carry a BUG a majority of the time, but I'll admit, I do not train for that scenario. If I'm not trained, I may not be able to deploy the BUG.

    On a tangential note, when there is a bump in the night, I grab my semi, cell and surefire. I do not grab a spare magazine and stuff it in my shorts. I also do not grab a BUG. What if I have a failure in my own house. should I have had a BUG on me in my own house???? Maybe I should set up the web gear on the bedpost when I go to sleep.

    I feel I am strapping more outside of the house than inside the house.

    Thoughts. Anyone thoughts???

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs
    ExSoldier762 you somewhat make my point for me , square ranges are now good for traing for round dustups , and are all most have access to. without realistic training no one can approch a " social disagreement" with confidince and every facit suffers
    Be that as it may, what data do we have that indicates anything near to a 5% failure in LEO duty guns?

  8. #37
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    I feel I am strapping more outside of the house than inside the house.
    Sojourner - I daresay this applies to a good few of us. OTOH in many cases there will be ''secreted'' extra guns in strategic places in the house, which might except for ease of access be regarded as BUGs.

    I know for sure I really do not, if honest, do serious practice drills which include the BUG - it is very much there as ''last ditch''. I doubt anything much other than FOF excercises would really put us to the acid test.

    I do mainly try to make sure that 1 is always tip-top running order and that receives main practice. Maybe another reason I choose hi-cap - is the probability that in house, it will be all I grab, plus light. Cell is NBG - no signal!
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    And just to tottally spin this whole conversation off of its axis, I actually carry my BUG with, pardon my French, ******** and elbows type combative situations in mind and special carry options I couldn't enjoy otherwise.

    For example some time ago I had to escort my mother, my grandmother, and several teenagers across a rural property and a crowded major Texas city late, late at night. The snubnose in my jacket pocket was at hand where it needed to be.

    I believe with all my being I personally am a more effective shooter with full sized guns in more effective calibers like 9mm, but with the exception of my Beer and Pretzels setup it's not that often I can pocket carry anything more potent than the little .38 that could. A .38 in the hand when Goblin Boy pops up around a corner with a lead pipe that's already 50% of the way to a collision with your head is better than the .45 you don't even have your hand indexed on in the holster.

    I've changed my personal carry items for now... we're having a cold spat and I can carry a lot of stuff in my jacket including BUG if need be, but I think long term I have to get a manpurse.

  10. #39
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    sojourner,
    That's been my position for years and a reason (or excuse) that I don't carry a BUG. We all seem to be concerned about people that buy guns and don't practice/train with them. But here we see people that carry BUGs and rarely, if at all, really train with the BUG as it would be deployed in the real world.

    It's like you said, how do you practice? Do you really throw or drop your main gun in practice?

    Yet, I readily concede that having a BUG is better than not having one.

    Well, I've got to add one more thing. If we choose a full size gun as our SD gun, why would we want anything less, when things reached their worst? It's like saying well I couldn't do it with my first choice main gun so it's time for the little BUG.

  11. #40
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    Thumbs up IDPA put the "round" into a "square" situation!

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs
    ExSoldier762 you somewhat make my point for me , square ranges are now good for traing for round dustups , and are all most have access to. without realistic training no one can approch a " social disagreement" with confidince and every facit suffers
    If you are referring to a simple target range with static targets, I have to agree. But possibly the best, most accessible training situation available on a wide scale is IDPA. That is tactical problem solving at it's best with proper safety constraints. The highest level of training reserved to civilians is of course one of the mainline schools, like Thunder Ranch or Gunsite or the Lethal Force Institute to name the top three IMHO. Lacking that expertise the next best step down is IDPA. If properly utilized, a good idpa club is priceless.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  12. #41
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    Smile For that "Bump in the Night"

    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner
    On a tangential note, when there is a bump in the night, I grab my semi, cell and surefire. I do not grab a spare magazine and stuff it in my shorts. I also do not grab a BUG. What if I have a failure in my own house. should I have had a BUG on me in my own house???? Maybe I should set up the web gear on the bedpost when I go to sleep.
    Actually, I usually grab my USP and slide it underneath my pillow at night, condition 2 (loaded mag, no rd in the pipe) and have a spare mag close at hand. I have a H&K UTL that I "quick attach" at night. I also have my standard G2 Nitrolon just in case. If we're in a power outtage (like after one of our hurricanes) I will load up my Benelli and have it leaning in the corner at my side of the bed. For that, I have a literal bandolier of spare shells. Heavy as all get out, but I'm not going on a patrol, either.....
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    Well, I've got to add one more thing. If we choose a full size gun as our SD gun, why would we want anything less, when things reached their worst? It's like saying well I couldn't do it with my first choice main gun so it's time for the little BUG.
    I look at it the other way: what's the WORST CCW gun I think is worth anything? That's my BUG.

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    i agree IDPA is better than a square range ( yes simple range with static b27 or bullseye normaly targets ) tho a square range is hard to beat to build and retain fundimentals . With ccw in mind i would heartily recomend mas' LFI to anyone , he does less shooting than most schools but has a " court defensible " program that is more " cerebrial " than almost anyone and is an unimpeachable expert witness if things do go to hell . The other one i would without reservation recomend is John Farnam who has i belive DTI here in colorado , i have met the man and audited one of his classes years ago , both thiese gentlemen will go the extra mile to far exceed the cost of the training. i cant say anything bad about a bunch of other instructors either but were i to spend my hard earned $$ on another round it would be with one of the two .

  15. #44
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    Lightbulb IDPA BUG scenarios

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    It's like you said, how do you practice? Do you really throw or drop your main gun in practice?
    In my IDPA club (to which Miggy will attest, since he's in the club as well) we regularly use BUG scenarios where we put the BUG on top of a barrel and start from a "surrender" position. Since BUGs are mandated to have no more than 5 rds, all shots must be for neutralization (headshots).
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    I look at it the other way: what's the WORST CCW gun I think is worth anything? That's my BUG.
    I'm not so sure the worst CCW gun I can think of is the one I want to fight with. One might be better off without it.

    For me, there's just something wrong with training that trains me to throw down my main gun for a lesser gun.

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