Starting to leave out the BUG

This is a discussion on Starting to leave out the BUG within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Tangle For me, there's just something wrong with training that trains me to throw down my main gun for a lesser gun. ...

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Thread: Starting to leave out the BUG

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    For me, there's just something wrong with training that trains me to throw down my main gun for a lesser gun.
    And why would you do this if you could help it?

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  3. #62
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    Tang , the image i suppose is ugly , i am not shure which is uglyer , nekked dad , or neeked anyone proneing your butt out under 12 ga , like i said new rules at our house lol

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs
    Tang , the image i suppose is ugly , i am not shure which is uglyer , nekked dad , or neeked anyone proneing your butt out under 12 ga , like i said new rules at our house lol
    LOL! You know I's just kiddin' don't you.

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    And why would you do this if you could help it?
    That's an excellent question! Why would we ditch our main gun in favor of a BUG?

    Some other good questions are: If you carry a BUG, under what circumstances would you go to it over your main gun? Is that scenario likely to happen? What do you do with your main gun in order to access the BUG? Do you practice your method of switching from the main gun to the BUG?

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    That's an excellent question! Why would we ditch our main gun in favor of a BUG?

    Some other good questions are: If you carry a BUG, under what circumstances would you go to it over your main gun?
    Your strong side arm is pinned or injured.

    You have to hold on to something to keep from falling.

    You have to push someone out of the way.

    Is that scenario likely to happen?
    Honestly, no. But I'm not likely to die today either yet I purchased $75,000 in life insurance yesterday.

    What do you do with your main gun in order to access the BUG?
    If I'm drawing the BUG it's for one of two reasons:

    It is physically impossible to draw the main gun.

    Or there is an immediate catastrophic failure a tap rack bang or ejecting the magazine won't solve.

    Do you practice your method of switching from the main gun to the BUG?
    I practice drawing and then firing the BUG a lot actually because I plan for a weak hand draw. I'm not really worried about what happens to the main gun because either I didn't draw it, or it became useless to me.

    It's the same reason people carry two or three knives... different positions on the body. The other factor is that some types of BUGs such as the ever popular snubnose revolver have uses in extreme close quarters situations that other guns don't. Paladin Press used to publish a really good book on the subject, lost my copy a long time ago.

    If nothing else, I realize that my little revolver will fire in the tightest of spots, and my self loader can be knocked out of battery by simply grabbing the slide and pushing backwards.

    Now of course is this all pie in the sky mall ninja fantasy... yeah probably.

  7. #66
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    "...this all pie in the sky mall ninja fantasy..."....Well...

    I'm not against carrying a BUG, but I do think they're over-rated. And part of the issue I have about BUGs comes from concepts beyond this thread. To wit, there are those who claim, in a gunfight, you will not have time or be able to reload your main gun (adreneline, etc.) and you should throw it down and go to your BUG. The problem is....well the problem(s) should be obvious. The scope of this thread doesn't seem to go that far, but it does seem that few that carry BUGs practice any kind of transition drill.

    "...Honestly, no. But I'm not likely to die today either yet I purchased $75,000 in life insurance yesterday..."

    What about a BOP - Back Up Policy?

    "If I'm drawing the BUG it's for one of two reasons:

    It is physically impossible to draw the main gun.

    Or there is an immediate catastrophic failure a tap rack bang or ejecting the magazine won't solve."


    Where does all the time required to do that come from? That's another point about the BUG. We assume we'll have time to access it after we've tried to fire our main gun, recognized it failed, a failure drill didn't fix it, and we now have time to go to our BUG. I just believe that it is extremely unlikely that we'll have time or opportunity for all that. Some claim most gunfights (civilian) are over in 2 - 3 seconds. If that's true...

    "It's the same reason people carry two or three knives... different positions on the body. The other factor is that some types of BUGs such as the ever popular snubnose revolver have uses in extreme close quarters situations that other guns don't.

    If nothing else, I realize that my little revolver will fire in the tightest of spots, and my self loader can be knocked out of battery by simply grabbing the slide and pushing backwards.
    "


    Again, I'm not against carrying a BUG, I just think it's way over-rated. I don't believe I have ever heard of a civilian having to revert to a BUG in a gunfight, well that lived to tell about it.

    If the BUG will do things the main gun can't, why is it the BUG?

    Slide knocked out of battery? How? For how long? Long enough to free up a hand/arm to access the BUG? What could knock and hold a slide out of battery such that your support hand and your strong hand isn't required to correct?

    "Now of course is this all pie in the sky mall ninja fantasy... yeah probably." Well...

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    What about a BOP - Back Up Policy?
    I actually do have one believe it or not. Crazy huh? I got more life insurance than some people twice my age.

    If the BUG will do things the main gun can't, why is it the BUG?
    Because I can carry a primary and a BUG but not two primaries. Well I possibly could carry two primaries but that presents a lot of other difficulities.

    A 1911 can do things a Glock can't because of its manual of arms and physical construction, why carry a Glock?

    Slide knocked out of battery? How? For how long? Long enough to free up a hand/arm to access the BUG? What could knock and hold a slide out of battery such that your support hand and your strong hand isn't required to correct?
    Who knows?

    <shrug> I carry two of most everything else. Two knives, two flashlights, two sets of car keys... why not two guns?

    Do I really need two? Probably not. Do I like it? Yeah. Could there possibly be some benefit to it? I think so, even if it is extremely unlikely.

  9. #68
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    Oh, wait, now I see a great reason to carry a BUG: "...Do I like it? Yeah..." Well, gee Euc, why didn't you just say that in the first place?

  10. #69
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    Cool Two 1911's = FIREPOWER

    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    <shrug> I carry two of most everything else. Two knives, two flashlights, two sets of car keys... why not two guns? Do I really need two? Probably not. Do I like it? Yeah. Could there possibly be some benefit to it? I think so, even if it is extremely unlikely.
    Sam Andrews has what he calls a Urban Safari Rig which is essentially two opposing shoulder holsters blended into one rig. Each side also has a mag carrier too for spare mags. WOW! Go take a looksee:
    http://www.andrewsleather.com
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #70
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    First of all, for me I can't leave my house with out a gun. For the reason that I'm an LEO and I've been carrying my gun for the past 16years on or off duty. I usually carry an STI .45 and my BUG is an Armscor 1911 commander hi-cap, If I'm just strolling on the mall or going to the gym, I carry the commander .45 as my BUG gun.
    Up in the Sky, It's a Bird No, It's a Plane No, It's SUPERMAN

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    If a BG get's your gun, it is likely he will be removing it from your dead body. There won't be an opportunity to recover from that scenario, which is why I don't carry a BUG on me for daily wear. I carry a knife. But I have a BUG in my vehicle for long trips and it serves as a primary for my wife in the vehicle. BG get's that close, you'd better segue into an ultra violent force on force attack with the object of popping eyeballs and ripping out throats....Using either an edged weapon or bare hands......it's THAT immediate.

    FIVE PERCENT FAILURE RATE ON FACTORY AMMO? Sorry, don't mean to yell, I'm just a bit shocked. I've got to disagree even with a pronounced murphy factor. I would figure as a S.W.A.G. that the actual failure rate for factory ammo is going to be about 1/10th of 1% Much MUCH more likely is a failure associated with the magazine or extractor.....If 5% was the number, I think we'd be seeing dead cops all over the place and tons of new lawsuits that would probably be SUPPORTED by the NRA!
    Excuse the choice of words gentlemen. I used the 5% as a simple measure, to just make my point of a very insignificant amount of failures. I agree that the 5 out of 100 scenario would be totally unacceptable. Again, I meant it as a small amount. But for the record, I have seen as many as 15 rounds in a 50 round box of the high end ammo misfire at the gun range. They were being shot from a box stock Kimber TLE. The ammo was fresh and had not been shelved. Yes, even I had a hard time believing that the gun had not been altered, to cause such a large percentage of malfunction. After inspecting it, I then gave the shooter a 100 round box of PMC I had, that had been on the shelf for over a year, and the gun shot flawlessly. It was NOT the gun or shooter.

    As far as being dead and not being able to use the BUG. Well I will have to disagree here. It could simply be a matter of the primary jamming and having the agressor not understand why you are no longer shooting at him. He, as shown in several tests, could close the distance very quickly and probably grapple for the gun. I would just let him have, the now useless primary, more than likely startling him just long enough to draw and fire the BUG as I am moving away from him.

    I practice regularly drawing my BUG and I can do it quite fast and efficiently, and get on target very quickly. If those of you that are carrying a BUG, are not practicing with it regularly, you are fooling yourself that you will be able to produce it with the speed and consistiency you will need to make any difference. Then what Ex Soldier said about being dead and not needing the BUG will more than like be the result.
    The only thing needed for evil to exist is for good men to stand by and do nothing!!!

  13. #72
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    Tex,
    Good explanation on the 5% statement. I think a lot of us were somewhat alarmed at the prospect of 5 failures out of 100. A lot of us shoot a lot, I do and I rarely see failures with Walmart ammo, much less premium stuff. But you did address that so it seems to be a settled point.

    Again, let me preface this with, I'm not against carrying a BUG. I have both a S&W Ti revolver and a Glock 26 for that very purpose. But it is still my opinion that the role of the BUG for a civilian is a bit over-rated.

    The issue I have is that the situations perceived where the BUG comes into play are a bit over simplified and a bit unrealistic. I would ask how many practice from a surprise, unexpected, spontaneous failure of the main gun to the release of the main gun to the drawing and firing the BUG? I don't believe anybody does that! Yet if the main gun failed in a gunfight, that's exactly the situation we would have to deal with, and we've never trained for that.

    So, IMO, if a BUG is to replace a failed main gun in the middle of a gunfight, it's probably not gonna work. You'll simply run out of time.

    But, one advantage I see to the BUG is not necessiarily as a BUG, but as another gun that can be more subtly deployed. Unfortunately that advantageous deployment requires too much time to be useful in a gunfight. But here it is:

    I'm sitting in my car. Main gun in a belt holster at 3:00 and my supplemental gun in an ankle hoslter on my left leg. A suspicious situation develops and I want to be very discrete. It would require a very obvious, overt (is that redundant?) motion to draw my main gun. But, I can draw the gun from my ankle holster without any one having a clue.

    The same is true if I'm sitting at a table. I must do a visible, overt motion to draw the gun on my waist, but nobody could see that I drew the gun from my ankle holster.

    Now before someone claims I'm reversing my position about BUGs, I'm really not. The two examples I gave deal with deployment, not replacement. The second gun becomes the primary gun by thoughtful choice.

    And BTW, if it's a Glock 26, I've got 11 rounds in the gun to deal with the situation. Again, a gun suitable IMO, as a bona fide self-defense gun rather than a BUG. I have read numerous accounts (there's one going on on GT right now) about how accurately the G-26 shoots and it's low recoil. I shot a G-34 and a G-26 in an indoor, timed GSSF match and tied for 2nd place with the G-34 and tied for fifth with the G-26 out of about 40 entries. That's not much difference between a subcompact and a gun with a 5.5" bbl.

    Just some thoughts, not necessiarly good ones, just thoughts.

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    But, one advantage I see to the BUG is not necessiarily as a BUG, but as another gun that can be more subtly deployed. Unfortunately that advantageous deployment requires too much time to be useful in a gunfight. But here it is:

    I'm sitting in my car. Main gun in a belt holster at 3:00 and my supplemental gun in an ankle hoslter on my left leg. A suspicious situation develops and I want to be very discrete. It would require a very obvious, overt (is that redundant?) motion to draw my main gun. But, I can draw the gun from my ankle holster without any one having a clue.

    The same is true if I'm sitting at a table. I must do a visible, overt motion to draw the gun on my waist, but nobody could see that I drew the gun from my ankle holster.
    OK. My H&K is at 3:30 IWB. My 642 is front right jeans pocket. I am walking in Philadephia and see what I would consider "unsavory" characters. I can easily slip my hand on my 642 and be ready to defend myself and my loved ones with none the wiser. If I have my hand on my H&K, people are going to know something is amiss.

    My H&K is at 3:30 IWB, my 642 is in my external right front pocket of my Coronado vest, I'm in the truck. Same thing, I can be subtle and ready to defend.

    This has me thinking.

    My philosophy has been to standardize everything so that in a moment of extreme duress, my only reactions will go to the one known place where I have a SD solution (3:30 IWB). However, that is not always the most flexible solution.

    To me, it is either:

    (1) sequential: first always go to IWB 3:30 at all times (regardless of sitting, standing, walking, driving, exercising, etc. ..., 2nd always go to right front pocket when my 1st choice fails and fails on a tap/rack/bang.

    (2) conditional:deciding on when to draw the standard IWB 3:30 or the front right pants or front right vest pocket depending upon situation.

    1 is easier to train for and be proficient for on certain situations, but does not take into account the specific situation I am in at a specific time.

    2 is harder to train for and requires me to be alert to my situation and the order of deployment, but is more flexible.

    I am ruminating over a hypothetical 3. Which is to always carry IWB 3:30, BUG (or alternate primary gun) right front jeans pocket, and vehicle gun center console.

    Decisions, Decisions!!!???!!!...

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by sojourner
    ...This has me thinking...Decisions, Decisions!!!???!!!...
    I know, but you're on to an important concept. Believe me, I thinking more about it now too.

  16. #75
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    When I worked at the local Stop-N-Rob I would carry a .38 in an ankle holster and a 9mm behind my right hip. Never considered my primary (9mm Kahr) failing. I just wanted ENOUGH firepower and felt better having options.

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