This should stir up a hornet's nest.

This is a discussion on This should stir up a hornet's nest. within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I just saw how long my last post was.. Sorry about that! Jonathan...

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Thread: This should stir up a hornet's nest.

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I just saw how long my last post was.. Sorry about that!

    Jonathan

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  3. #62
    OD*
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    Quote Originally Posted by belltoller View Post
    The threadstarter was specifically referring to all recoil buffers, not just in 1911s.
    The paragraph where the comment was made, was referring to 1911s.
    Things that I would add to the list of bad ideas:

    1.) 8-round magazines for the 1911. I've seen few that finish two days of training without blowing apart. Usually the floor plate dislodges from the base of the magazine, leaving the student standing there with a pistol gummed up with loose rounds, a follower and a spring clogging the ejection port, and a magazine body that they can't get out of the well.

    2.) Recoil buffers - get these out of your life! Get them out of your pistols and get them out of your rifles! They never fail to disintegrate under heavy use, rendering the weapon useless until disassembled and cleaned out.

    3.) Extended this, and enlarged that. Don't modify guns with oversized slide stops or extended mag release buttons, mercury guide rods or rubber grip sleeves, etc... There's one bit of wisdom that I learned the hard way years ago: There is nothing you can buy, bolt, glue or screw to a gun that will align your sights and press your trigger for you. You cannot spend money on things to make you shoot better, regardless of what our modern American mindset tells us. Marksmanship comes from proper technique and proper practice, and good old fashioned work. . . . Save your money and spend it on training!
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
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  4. #63
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I don't see how that refers specifically to 1911s? It says to get them out of your pistols and rifles??

    Jonathan

  5. #64
    Member Array eddyb45's Avatar
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    yesterday had another private training class put through 600 rounds in 2.5 hours. not one issue.. none.. Good lessons about cleaning, mx etc.. but if you buy a high end 1911 and maintain it you won't have any problems.. Own two Ed Brown Special Forces.. had a few ftf <1000 rounds but thats about it..

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD View Post
    The paragraph where the comment was made, was referring to 1911s.
    2.) Recoil buffers - get these out of your life! Get them out of your pistols and get them out of your rifles!

    Fair enough. So show us some pics of your 1911 rifle.
    HK .45C
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  7. #66
    Member Array eddyb45's Avatar
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    here you go belltoller.. couple browns and kimber..

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by belltoller View Post
    Fair enough. So show us some pics of your 1911 rifle.
    Fair enough. So refresh my memory as to which rifles come from the factory with "shock buffers"?
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

  9. #68
    Member Array belltoller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD View Post
    Fair enough. So refresh my memory as to which rifles come from the factory with "shock buffers"?
    Where did I say any such thing? I was talking about new HKs. And you completely side-stepped my original comment that it's probably not a good idea to take recoil buffers out of new HKs and other pistols that are factory designed to have them.

    Can you at least admit that when someone makes a comment broadly referring to "pistols" and "rifles" that he/she is most likely talking about pistols and rifles generally? Sheesh. Some people just cannot admit that they're wrong.
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  10. #69
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    Some people just cannot admit that they're wrong.
    You read my mind.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Diligentia Vis Celeritas"

    "There is very little new, and the forgotten is constantly being rediscovered."
    ~ Tiger McKee

  11. #70
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmac00 View Post
    I don't know about you folks, but I know at least 30 people with 1911 type "Race guns" made by STI/SV, Para-Ordnance, Colt and Kimber and a few others.

    All of them (including my Para) run flawlessly. We do get the occasional jam/stovepipe and "mag feed" problems.

    But I have never seen one break, or have so many problems a competitor could not continue.

    I think part of the problem might be maintenance. Us IPSC shooters tend to take a lot better care of our equipment than your average shooter.

    My Glock, has never had a problem, But like I said, I maintain my equipment.
    I'm a rookie IDPA & IPSC shooter; probably 1,000 rnds in each. Which guns jam the most in the matches I've seen? Kimber 1911s, by a large margin. Never seen a Glock or Sig fail period. My own H&K USP & P2000 each failed to feed when I used magazines loaded w/a UPLULA. I stopped using the UPLULA some time ago and haven't had a failure since.
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  12. #71
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    Some hits, some misses in those articles.


    Misses

    1911s are not inherently bad guns. They're military guns. At the time they were invented and first fielded, they were outstanding guns for three reasons: 1) they're an excellent design, 2) they all were made to one spec sheet, with little to no variation, and 3) they did not tend to see the high volumes of fire that many do today. Nowadays, 1911 has become nomenclature for a class of handguns. The patent ran out and tons of companies now compete to cash in on JMB's nearly-100-year-old design. As expected, some companies cut corners, some companies overbuild, some companies try to maintain what was. The 1911 is a very malleable design; it was designed to be fitted by hand, and as such lends itself well to certain modifications.

    Those two individuals might have had bad luck with 1911s, but I did not hear them name names. This is important, because certain names have well-deserved reputations attached to them. Look at the industry surrounding AR-15s and you see the same thing. I would bet that a large number of FBI HRT, LA SWAT, and other SRTs equipped with 1911s probably don't have many problems, even in high-volume training.

    Moving onto the Sigs, the DA/SA trigger is the fault, not the Sigs. Plenty of guns have DA/SA triggers, and with all of them you see the same problem. Buy and shoot a PA-63 if you want a solid example of this. I hope the authors' mention of Sigs were simply in reference to the trigger action, not the manufacturer.

    On the second author, "You haven't had any real training until things start breaking," but when they do there are complaints? Ok.

    1.) 8-round magazines for the 1911. I've seen few that finish two days of training without blowing apart. Usually the floor plate dislodges from the base of the magazine, leaving the student standing there with a pistol gummed up with loose rounds, a follower and a spring clogging the ejection port, and a magazine body that they can't get out of the well.
    8-round magazines for 1911s are fine, if you buy quality mags. I'd stack my Chip McCormick Power Mags against any mag out there.

    Extended this, and enlarged that. Don't modify guns with oversized slide stops or extended mag release buttons, mercury guide rods or rubber grip sleeves, etc... There's one bit of wisdom that I learned the hard way years ago: There is nothing you can buy, bolt, glue or screw to a gun that will align your sights and press your trigger for you. You cannot spend money on things to make you shoot better, regardless of what our modern American mindset tells us. Marksmanship comes from proper technique and proper practice, and good old fashioned work. . . . Save your money and spend it on training!
    All well and good, until you find certain features of the pistol don't fit you. I don't see anyone at all complaining that their extended thumb safeties made them a poorer shooter or inhibited their learning to shoot. I added a strip of skateboard tape to the front of my 1911 because I learned that slick metal surface and sweat don't make for good weapon handling. Some replace their grips for the same reason (I also need to do this). Are upgrading metal sights also extraneous? I don't care what people buy, bolt, glue or screw to a gun, so long as it doesn't inhibit their learning or make them a poorer shooter. If it doesn't hurt, don't worry about it. Let the shooter decide if it's worth the investment.

    Manufacturers aren't making guns to be fired seven times in their lifespan. I do not trust a High Power with my life, but I'd trust it to fire more than seven times (heck, maybe even twice that!). Most modern firearms will outlast their owners, if only because they were made to be safe weapons to fire. Manufacturers aren't banking on their products being seldom used.


    Hits

    All weapons need to be maintained properly. Granted, this should be a given, but often isn't. Recoil springs are an example of this. Preventative maintenance is too rarely talked about these days (.mil are the worst about it, too).

    Sharp edges are bad. It's cool in theory to have a projectile and edged weapon, but sharp edges tear up skin, pants, holsters, etc. Colt still hasn't figured this out. Colt, meet Kimber. Kimber can show you how to not slice and dice.

    Glock's plastic sights suck. No need to expand on that.

    Quality magazines are a must. What the trainers don't say, but should, is that magazines are also consumable items. Don't be married to your mags. When they fail, and cannot be fixed, recycle what can be recycled and trash the rest.

    Recoil buffers, as well as acu-wedges and similar devices, are crap. They serve no function to better the firearm and are more often than not a liability. I'm fairly positive that's the point at least one author was trying to get across.



    -B
    RIP, Jeff Dorr: 1964 - July 17, 2009. You will be missed.


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  13. #72
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    As a firearms instructor, someone who has spent a number of years on the range observing many handguns in action, I wanted to ad support for the notion that the 1911 pattern is one of the more unreliable. To try to put this into perspective, the classes I am referring to are of the 1200 rounds in a three day period variety. There are no lorcin, jennings, or other "well known to fail" kinds of handguns present (I won't let people bring these to the classes). I wanted to clarify that so no one thinks I am unfavorably comparing 1911s to such. Sig, glock, 1911s (many manufacturers), and an occasional cz, h&k, beretta, xd, and fnp are the most commonly used handguns in these classes.

    During the course, I keep a running tally of how many stoppages each person has (aside from the ones intentionally induced) and this will be a point of discussion at some point near the end of the class.

    What I have found by doing this is that people usually do not remember their guns as ever having a problem. I can mention the specific exercise where the stoppage occurred and this will sometimes 'jog' their memory but without that, most people would leave thinking that their handgun functioned throughout the entire class without fail.

    To put a name on a "common to fail" 1911 pattern (someone wanted a name in an earlier post): Kimber. It is a very popular brand though and I see a lot of them in our classes. Perhaps this is why they are observed failing more often than other manufacturers.

    It is rare to see a sig, glock, or h&k with a stoppage. They do happen but nowhere near the frequency of the 1911 pattern.

    These are just one person's observations from witnessing many thousands of bullets go downrange. Regardless of which manufacturer and design of a handgun I may personally favor, I know firsthand which ones are more reliable.

    Randy

  14. #73
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    Oddly, no CZs showing up?

    The only real compliant about a CZ is the small slide profile, which
    some people with big hands have problems with.
    www.czforum.com



    Go RED SOX!

  15. #74
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    In the last handgun class (10 people) I took there was one failure, a Glock (several stovepipe jams). What conclusions do I draw from this - none whatsoever.

  16. #75
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    Clarkston_cz, if your question was directed to me, yes, we have the occasional cz in a class. I noted such.

    Jet, you are correct. A sample of 1 isn't sufficient to draw any conclusions. In one of our intermediate level classes last year a guy had a sig (don't remember the model right off the top of my head - it was the single stack .45) that wouldn't get through a single magazine without a failure to extract. He was able to complete the class with a loaner pistol and sent the malfunctioning sig back to the factory. The factory said the pistol had a weak extractor spring and it was replaced. The owner reports his gun has been functioning fine since.

    I didn't mention sig in my earlier post as a pistol prone to have stoppages because this pistol was clearly broken. Additionally, given my previous experience with them in our classes, they just don't exhibit problems of that nature.

    In the case of the glock you mentioned, my first thought is that it might be worth taking a closer look at it. If the shooter isn't directly inducing the problem, check the pistol for aftermarket parts (recoil spring assembly in this case). These guns typically do not fail with any frequency. When you see one doing so, start looking for the reason.

    Randy

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