An interesting piece from Front Sight about guns and caliber - very interesting...

An interesting piece from Front Sight about guns and caliber - very interesting...

This is a discussion on An interesting piece from Front Sight about guns and caliber - very interesting... within the Defensive Carry Guns forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here's the link: Gun Training Report #17 The Right Gun and Ammo I pretty much agree with him. If you can read this with an ...

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  1. #1
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    An interesting piece from Front Sight about guns and caliber - very interesting...

    Here's the link:

    Gun Training Report #17 The Right Gun and Ammo

    I pretty much agree with him. If you can read this with an open mind, and concede that you've never been tested in a gunfight or even in a FOF simulator, it should be eye-opening.

    I've seen the same things in simulators I've been in, that he talks about - esp. half as good, half as smart.
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    I don't necessarily disagree with what he is saying, but I will say that there is a substantial leap over a lot of different guns going from the simplicity of a Glock to a 1911.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    Member Array Randy's Avatar
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    The article is spot-on.

    We were just discussing some of the same firearm attributes mentioned here in another thread.

    Randy

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    There seems to be 'conflict of interest' to say "...What is my backup gun? A 1911, which is the next best choice..." and "In a gun fight, you will never wish you had a smaller, more complicated gun or less ammunition. You will want as big and simple a gun as possible with as a much ammunition as possible to offset the effects of stress in a lethal encounter.

    A Glock has a minimum of 14 rounds (G21, .45 ACP) whereas a 1911 has maximum of 9 rounds. That seems in direct conflict with with as much ammo as possible. BTW, I am convinced, until shown otherwise that he means, specifically, as much ammo as possible in the gun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    There seems to be 'conflict of interest' to say "...What is my backup gun? A 1911, which is the next best choice..." and "In a gun fight, you will never wish you had a smaller, more complicated gun or less ammunition. You will want as big and simple a gun as possible with as a much ammunition as possible to offset the effects of stress in a lethal encounter.

    A Glock has a minimum of 14 rounds (G21, .45 ACP) whereas a 1911 has maximum of 9 rounds. That seems in direct conflict with with as much ammo as possible. BTW, I am convinced, until shown otherwise that he means, specifically, as much ammo as possible in the gun.

    I don't know what Glocks they have in your neck of the woods but around here Glock manufactures and sells guns that hold 9 rounds maximum (G36).

    The 1911 is most likely his secondary vs a second Glock due to the fact that if he is ex military combat then it is what he know and knows well. The 1911 is the most proven combat weapon out there and BTW he did not say how many rounds of additional ammo he was carrying vs the 9 in the gun...nor did he mention what Glock he was reffering to.

    I agree with his statements and the artical as a whole...rather than turn this into a Glock vs SIG vs M&P vs Taurus vs H&K vs 1911... debate lets look at his point of simplicity and training. You are the weapon! My gun is VERY secondary to my skills and I assure you, I train regularly for what I hope I never have to do!

    You are the weapon! Your gun is only one of your tools.
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    Tactics is what "wins" an encounter.

    The gun is merely a tool to do so. The best gun, greatest ammo and all that jazz does you no good if you stand out in the middle of an empty field and don't get to cover.

    TACTICS ARE WHAT KEEPS YOU ALIVE!

    The rest of it is just icing on the cake so to speak. Now I do agree that one never wishes they carried less ammo, or a smaller gun when the fecal matter hits the rotating thingie, but everything is a compramise. You can't very well drive an Armored Attack Vehicle with a Belt Fed Machine Gun down Main Street USA to go to the grocery store.

    It's the Indian, not the bow and arrow that "wins" an armed encounter. With that said, "There are no second place winners in a gunfight, only survivors."

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    Interesting article...

    The author is a pretty good promoter of his training school. It sounds like he would advocate a Glock 30 plus lots of training and practice with it. I don't see much about revolvers in his article.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosights View Post
    I don't know what Glocks they have in your neck of the woods but around here Glock manufactures and sells guns that hold 9 rounds maximum (G36).
    In my neck of the woods, I carry a G21 - 14 rounds .45ACP, 230 gn.

    Quote Originally Posted by nosights View Post
    ...BTW he did not say how many rounds of additional ammo he was carrying vs the 9 in the gun...nor did he mention what Glock he was reffering to.
    That's one reason I am convinced that he meant 'in the gun' not on the belt. That's the only thing that makes sense in context with simple and half-good/half-smart in a gunfight.

    It makes no sense to emphasize how difficult it is in a gunfight and at the same time promote the notion of reloading in a gunfight - half as good/half as smart. If ammo on the belt was significant, a five shot revo with two reloads would be exactly equivalent to 15 rounds already in the gun. Of course they are no where near equivalent.

    I'd venture to say that in the scenarios he referred to, there were no reloads performed during the fight. There might have been a reload after it was over in order to reset for the next drill.

    Quote Originally Posted by nosights View Post
    ...My gun is VERY secondary to my skills and I assure you, I train regularly for what I hope I never have to do!
    Mine isn't secondary - it's very primary. What skills do I have to defend myself against an armed attack without my gun? And who'd like to join me in a FOF scenario (Simunitions of course) and see how my gun as my primary weapon fairs against you as a weapon without your gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by nosights View Post
    ...You are the weapon! Your gun is only one of your tools.
    I've never bought into the "I am a weapon" - I've had way too much training to believe that. I am not a weapon, I don't have the physical attributes or training to be a weapon without my gun. Now I have the skills to operate my weapon, i.e. my gun, but without my gun, I wouldn't be much against an armed attacker.

    I believe we are missing the point about the article. His point is that in a gunfight simpler is better. Now, I realize there's some 'rub' here because he picks Glocks. But let's realize, he's actually seen the difference in simulators with students probably hundreds, if not thousands of times. All those high speed reloads and mag problem failure drills that get talked about so much, go completely away in FOF scenarios.

    Plus, the group he's referring to is people with very little training and people that don't get to do a lot of practice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosights View Post
    The 1911 is most likely his secondary vs a second Glock due to the fact that if he is ex military combat then it is what he know and knows well.
    He has never served in the military.

    I think the article is a bit on the disingenuous side. If I'm Wyatt Earp reincarnated, a High Point or Jennings is still a High Point or Jennings. What the article omits is that there is a level of quality that one should strive for when picking a weapon they plan to defend their life with, and some firearms simply don't cut it. Additionally, some equipment matters, which is why there is such a price difference between good quality holsters and mag pouches and the cheap paddle holsters and Uncle Mikes of the world.


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    It read like a Glock advert to me.
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    His "Half as good in a gunfight as your best training day" is good, but there is lots of off-putting stuff in that article that detracts.

    <<in the years before opening Front Sight and then subsequently dominating the firearms training industry>>

    Dominating the firearms training industry?

    <<Simplicity: The Glock is by far the simplest. Trigger, magazine release, and slide release. Thatís it.>>

    What, there aren't pistols by other manufacturers that are configured just like that? How can Glock be the "simplest" when others have the same feature set?

    <<Ease of use: The Glock wins again with a trigger press that is essentially the same with each shot and has no safety lever to engage.>>

    If other pistols also have no manual safety and also have a trigger press that is the same for each shot (HK USP with LEM trigger, for example); just how is it that Glock "wins again"?

    <<You cannot hold the gun as steady as a vice, so all modern handguns are more consistent than you can accurately hold them. If you canít shoot a tight group it is not the handgun.>>

    This makes absolutely no sense at all.

    <<Speed: Glock wins again>>

    Huh? Again, other pistols have no manual safety, other pistols have equal or better trigger resets, so why does Glock win again?

    <<What is my backup gun? A 1911, which is the next best choice in terms of simplicity and ease of use. The 1911 has a thumb safety and grip safety which makes it a bit more complicated to use.>>

    Okay, he says Glock is best because it has no manual safety, but his next choice is a pistol that has two manual safeties? By his own logic, wouldn't the next best choice be a pistol with only one manual safety?

    And speaking of safeties:

    << What about the Safety? Glocks have a safety on the trigger.>>

    Bull.

    A "safety" that does not allow the trigger to be pulled unless the trigger is pulled is not a safety. It might be considered a 'safety feature', like a firing pin block to preclude a dropped pistol from going off, but it is not a SAFETY as shooters normally use the term - a manually positioned lever, button, etc that must be moved to the fire position to enable the weapon to be fired.

    One last thing, his constant use of bold and CAPITALS and underlining is annoying as heck and DETRACTS FROM THE MESSAGE

    Sorry, feeling ornery this morning, rant over.

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    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Wouldn't a second, smaller, same caliber Glock be better? - uses the same magazines and inner parts.

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    He makes the same basic arguement that I think most of the world is currently making. A Glock is a good gun for most any skill level shooter. A 1911 is not a pistol for a novice. I would never suggest a new shooter start with a 1911 unless they convinced me that they were either going to just shoot paper or they were going to make the committment to master the gun. My favorite pistol of the last 20+yrs is a 1911 in .45acp. I find myself carrying and training with an XD 9mm these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllAmerican View Post
    It read like a Glock advert to me.
    But on one of his specials he is including an XD. So I don't think he cares what gun it is as long as you are proficient with it.
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    I must admit I got a huge kick out of;

    I came up with that motto for Front Sight after my experience as a student in the years before opening Front Sight and then subsequently dominating the firearms training industry.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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